Observations

[Hudson]

I just don't understand why you would insult the MIP Process and the new members who chose to be initiated through it only. It was the activities of the old school members why MIP is in place today.

[Cujo 87]

THe mip Procees in my opinion is part of the problem. The mip process encouraged and continues to encourage more underground pledging. The people who go through an underground process do not fully experience nor understand what a "old School" Process is about, it certainly is not about trying to hurt or injure someone but to form an eternal bond,if you can notunderstand this then maybe you too missed an important part of your process.

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Omega Psi Phi
Spr87 PM
Ace - Trinymphods

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by mccoyred:
Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle!

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.

Well put, Soror. Sometimes we get caught up in talking about what is wrong with a thing. I appreciate the suggestons instead of just complaints.

[DoggyStyle82]

MCCOYRED:

We are of the same era and I see that we pretty much think alike on this subject. Our National bodies are in a Catch -22. Omega was the last org to adopt Intake and we almost did not do it (it was implemented without knowledge/consent of the general membership, but that is another story). The simple fact is, that if you are not in compliance with current state law, your org cannot be legally insured, you violate your tax-exempt status and can be stripped of it, no risk management underwriter will touch you, and most college campuses will revoke your status as a legal, campus recognized organization. Yes, the NPHC should lobby for the return to our non-hazing pledge traditions. But as long as we are in an anti-Greek climate and lawyers see dollar signs, the laws will not change. Did you know that there is a white lawyer based in MD whose practice is solely based on suing Black fraternities and sororities for hazing?

I wish we could go back because interests do have different expectations now and that leads to most of the so-called hazing incidents. we old-schoolers arer to blame when we glorify the past but then again, we know how it is supposed to be.

LASTPOET: glad that we agree on something. Your mom sounds like my kind of woman.

[the411]

A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad. I am not saying that humbling yourself means subjecting yourself to any and everything and living in total fear; I am saying that interesteds need to start realizing that we know what our orgs are looking for in prospective members, and that we know what they need to gain from the pledgeship in order to value and appreciate their familyhood. Nowadays, you've got pledgees calling bluffs and making threats, while we're "giving in" to save our chapters and keep our orgs out of the news over something that shouldn't even come close to being considered hazing (like dressing alike), but it is.

Pledging vs. Hazing. That's the issue. Although they aren't the same, the law has made them synonyms.




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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by the411:
A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad.

Ms. Quintessence, you are so right. This is especially true of legacies and those interests who silent monitor Greek boards. They know that certain things that members consider "pledging" are technically or legally "hazing" and feel empowered to flaunt the inadequacies of the MIP, such as dropping dime when they are not accepted or refusing to humble themselves to "chapter traditions" . That is why orgs are full of "research" members and not "pledged" members

[mccoyred]

Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle!

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.



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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[DoggyStyle82]

Obviously you have a point to espouse and nothing will change your mind. If you don't want to pledge to be in a fraternity, the Boy Scouts, 100 Black Men, Urban League, or whatever civic organization, is always on the lookout for men to participate. If what it takes to get into a fraternity is not for you, look elsewhere.

[the411]

So, Hudson-- What are YOU proposing?

Since (let you tell it) those of us on the inside don't have the answers, I'm interested in what YOU think is the best way. Sounds to me like you're saying that, no matter what is done, there will still be extremities. We could give "hazers" the death penalty, but the "hazee" will still have been hurt. So, what are you suggesting we do, short of somehow programming members to be "Stepford Greeks" who all act and think exactly alike?

You've stated the obvious-- that no matter what the rules and laws, s%$@ may still happen. So, unless YOU have the secret formula and are willing to share it, then Doggy is right-- the solution is for you and other GDIs to simply not join if you are that concerned about the negatives of pledging.

And I'm Out...

the411

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Hudson:

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

But that is the way it is now. The change to MIP has not ended violent hazing. Some argue it has increased it and in some places encoraged it. We still deal with it after the fact. Allowing pledging does not prevent prosecution of hazers.

[Hudson]

In response to the411, I think things should stay the way it is right now. Only because it seems like the only way to protect the Fraternity or Sorority from lawsuits and shifts the blame, legally, on the individual members who choose to go againts the policies set out by each organization.

[Hudson]

To DoggyStyle82, Well knowing how much shame and ridicule I will receive from doing the MIP, I most likely will not pledge a greek-lettered organization. Good news for you.

[Hudson]

I dont believe changing things again will work either. You can end, revamp, change the laws, reinstitute the pledge process all you want. When you finally formulate a process that is pleasing to everyone, you will still have those "exceptions" who will haze and beat the sh*& out of a line. Yes you can have a graduate representative there, but he/she cannot be there at all times and there may even be a "bad" graduate representative who's down with the beat down.

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i actually think that the 411's examples of how MIP can be revamped and reshaped to include not only the new system but aspects of the old system is basically showing how those who are "mad hazers" can be eliminated.

the thing that seems to have happened is that with the inception of MIP those who are in the organization (strictly my opinion and not direct knowledge considering i'm not a member of any GLO) have felt that they have no control over the process. the process that many have respected over time has been lost due to someone elses grave errors. those folx who were involved in the deaths and serious injuries of pledges were not trained in the ways of pledging vs. hazing.

there is my brotha a difference.

hazing will never unify but pledging always does!

if there was a training session put in place for greeks before they take on a line. if the guidelines are set before them...in black and white....with no exceptions. and the session that explains the difference between hazing and pledging is outlined in detail and taking with great care to make everyone involved completely aware of the details then there will most likely be fewer deaths and injuries.
of course the process that is put forth must involve, as i said before, aspects of the "old skool" way and the MIP.

has the MIP reduced deaths? maybe. But has the MIP encouraged brother/sisterhood...i would argue not really. even people who are sorely against the "old" way are quick to shout that they were initiated before intake.

it is sad Hudson...but renegades exist in every organization and organized movement. no matter how many times you say "don't do that" some fool will do it anyway. but that is when it is up to the national organization to make sure that person is held accountable for their actions. and i would even argue that if a melding of "old skool" and MIP were made the members of the organization would be more likely to discipline a renegade on their own.

i would offer you (Hudson) a really great site that discusses the reasons for pledging. in my opinion it is one of the best sources that i have read that outlines the ancient inception of a "pledge process". The Temple of Blue
for me the difference became crystal clear. my understanding of, marching in formation, learning understanding embracing the history of an organization through training sessions, wearing matching outfits, going through the final intense week that is often referred to as "hell week" etc., was completely enhanced.

it is true that there are problems with the current system. and admittedly because there was seemingly no limit on the "old skool" way of things there were problems as well. but if there was some revamping of a system that for many is remembered with the kind of love one can only feel for family...then the deaths and the injuries will cease.

peace

[D.E.M.4's]

I have read through most of the threads. I must say that I am proud of everyone on this site for speaking their mind and having the guts to say all of this on the internet.

My question is did the Omegas and Deltas or any of NPHC for that matter, get their rights back to have a "pledge process" again or is this a "hypothetical topic?" I ask because in my sorority we are put on moritorium for even saying the word "Pledging" (first hand experience.) I will understand if you can not answer but I just thought I would ask.