Pi Kappa Phi chapter at NC State suspended after "embarrassing, scary" book found

[33girl]

It's not the fraternity system coming to an end, it's the WORLD, because holy shit, I still agree with Kevin!!

These kids have known how to access porn and some of the sickest things you could imagine on a computer since they were old enough to toddle. They have zero filter as far as whether they should share a thought in public. Heavens, of COURSE they should, because it is their thought and everything that emits from them is a glitter rainbow. Fraternities didn't do that. They come to school with this attitude.

"It's amazing how long our country has been going to hell without ever having gotten there." -Andy Rooney

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

These kids have known how to access porn and some of the sickest things you could imagine on a computer since they were old enough to toddle. They have zero filter as far as whether they should share a thought in public. Heavens, of COURSE they should, because it is their thought and everything that emits from them is a glitter rainbow. Fraternities didn't do that. They come to school with this attitude.

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not saying fraternities created the problem, though I do acknowledge that some people are saying that. What I am saying is that the task for fraternities is to be seen as part of a solution.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Are you trying to be obtuse? Memos reminding us about programs we already have in place. Not just memos. Programs already in place.

LOL, of course I'm not trying to be obtuse. I knew exactly what you meant. I'm just not impressed by it. Memos telling people to follow the policies in place are the corporate equivalent of "now children, we've told you not do that." The guys who are going to follow the policies will do it anyway. The guys who aren't going to will ignore the memos.

Memos telling members to follow policies may be a start, but my point is that if that's the extent of a response, it's an inadequate response.

And the "boys will be boys" concept is no less true than 50 years ago. If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

The "boys will be boys" concept is an excuse. Of course, people of any age will say stupid things, and I know as well as anyone how the brain and judgment of a 19-year-old boy isn't fully developed.

But you've said yourself that the vast majority of chapters aren't doing these stupid things. So apparently lots of boys won't be boys. Trotting out that excuse does nothing except to appear to tut-tut behavior that is going way beyond just "saying stupid things."

I agree that a Chicken Little response is an over-reaction. But the other extreme is an ostrich with his head in the sand, saying there's no real problem. There is a problem, a cultural problem, and it's in the best interests of fraternities to be seen to be trying to change the culture. We claim to be about creating leaders, so let's let the public see us doing that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that a Chicken Little response is an over-reaction. But the other extreme is an ostrich with his head in the sand, saying there's no real problem. There is a problem, a cultural problem, and it's in the best interests of fraternities to be seen to be trying to change the culture. We claim to be about creating leaders, so let's let the public see us doing that.

Jesus Christ... the national organization has suspended the chapter's charter pending investigation? What more do you want? The CIA to be sent in with waterboards?

And I don't know about your org, but traditional main line fraternities already have a crap ton of programming aimed at diversity, bystander intervention, etc. None of those things and no number of visits from HQ are going to change the fact that we are organizations primarily composed of 18-20 year olds who say and do stupid things from time to time and that will never change no matter what programming we have.

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book. -- Cicero.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by 33girl

These kids

Men

Originally Posted by MysticCat

and I know as well as anyone how the brain and judgment of a 19-year-old boy isn't fully developed.

Man

Originally Posted by Kevin

primarily composed of 18-20 year olds .

white men

***

Men existing in all male spaces, and especially white men existing in all-white or mainly white spaces, have a responsibility to not be racist, to not be sexist, to not rape, to not oppress. When one joins a fraternity, it is understood that those beliefs and actions are not more important than the values of the private organization that they join, not just because the values themselves are pretty much infallible, but there are tangible repercussions to not living up to those values.

I am growing increasingly concerned that the culture of mainly white fraternities and sororities is one that reinforces white supremacy, even in the presence of black members; that reinforces sexism and sexual violence; and fosters a sense of generational entitlement.

For years, going on decades, I used to question, and even be angered by Georgetown's position against recognizing fraternities and sororities. When I went to an administrator about it, he/she said "I understand, and I do think the black/Latino/multicultural sororities and fraternities do a lot of good. But if we recognize those, we have to recognize the white organizations, too. And we don't want to risk that. At least you have city-wide chapters."

From a university's perspective, I now understand. While I don't think Georgetown's decision was necessarily an eloquent one, they needed to take the path of the least liability. By deemed Greek life an off-campus decision in the hands of the students, they have created an environment that they can control through the traditional means of adjudication and grievance, without third party intervention.

Of course, people may still join organizations - you all are well aware that KKG and Theta have colonized in the past year and a half, and that AEPi, SAE, SigEp, and Delta Psi all have chapters on campus. The NPHC presence ebbs and flows, and several LGLOs also have a presence.

I am surprised that I agree with Georgetown's stance, now that I see the damaging effects of the culture of whiteness on the Greek system as a whole. I am not in favor of any institution that reinforces oppression at all, much less in an academic environment.

These are men making decisions. Let them make those decisions off campus. There is precedent, inside and outside of Greek life.

And maybe we can stop making the insurance brokers rich in the process.

[carnation]

Some bad stuff has happened, Sen. Several white GLOs have gotten in trouble. And so have many black ones, primarily for major hazing.

[AZTheta]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing: I am sharing a link that calls for abolition of the fraternity system, including repealing Title IX exemption for fraternities and sororities.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by carnation

Some bad stuff has happened, Sen. Several white GLOs have gotten in trouble. And so have many black ones, primarily for major hazing.

Heaven forbid a discussion primarily about white supremacy and patriarchy carry on without a woman with white privilege making it about something else.

[carnation]

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/a.../greek-tragedy

if you were going to say something about the Georgetown advisor thinking that only the majority white GLOs had anything bad going, this needed to be said. I still think that all GLOs have much to contribute, though.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Jesus Christ... the national organization has suspended the chapter's charter pending investigation? What more do you want? The CIA to be sent in with waterboards?

Now who's trying to be obtuse Kevin? I was very clearly replying to a specific comment of yours:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hope y'alls' national organizations responded to these incidents the same way mine did--with memos reminding chapters to implement programming which we already have in place.

Yes, we all have policies and programs in place—some of them really good ones. Sending memos about them is a band-aid.

What I'm saying is that we have a PR problem. The headlines and news stories are what people are seeing. Some who are paying attention see us reacting—sometimes strongly, sometimes tepidly. But the fact remains, we have a PR problem. To fix that we have to be proactive and creative in ways we haven't always had to be before. We need to take responsibility for trying to get things to the place that when people hear "fraternity," they don't automatically think "privileged, racist, mysogenist frat boys."

To be clear, it can't just be PR. Almost every statement issued by a fraternity when these things happen says something along the lines of "these actions are not consistent with the values of ABC fraternity." We need to let the wider community see us exemplifying our values so that when we say that, it doesn't just sound like damage control. Sure we do that in some ways now, but we that doesn't mean we can't do more, or that there may not be new ways that would be effective.

We say when these things happen that they're aberrations and don't represent the majority of fraternity members or chapters. We need to back that up in a way that when we say it, people have reason the believe it.

I really don't see why this is a controversial concept. Seems pretty basic to me.

And Sen, agreed—men, not boys.

[ASTalumna06]

Ok, I'm not looking for a big debate about what recruitment needs to be at larger schools or whether deferred recruitment would work, or any of those other arguments we usually have (I'm looking at you, NPCers ), but I wanted to post this article that made me think a bit... what if we tried to stop the problems before they even begin?

Is Fraternity/Sorority an Outdated Idea?
http://blog.phiredup.com/?p=3267

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

I am growing increasingly concerned that the culture of mainly white fraternities and sororities is one that reinforces white supremacy, even in the presence of black members; that reinforces sexism and sexual violence; and fosters a sense of generational entitlement.

That's really our culture? You know this? Such blanket statements are as offensive as the crap coming out of these very few racist asshole chapters. In the SAE case, the national organization caught wind of what happened and shut that chapter down and expelled or is in the process of expelling everyone responsible. In the case of Pi Kapa Phi, as soon as their national organization was notified, the chapter was placed on suspension and is under investigation. What the hell makes you think our culture reinforces white supremacy when the actions of our national organizations when faced with isolated cases of chapters behaving badly could not possibly rationally give that appearance?

What we have is a PR problem to be sure. It is not a cultural problem. This situation is very similar to how the public perceives school violence. While it is an all time low, because of media coverage, the public perceives our schools as danger zones. In reality, we are living our values better than ever, are more diverse than ever and are successful in terms of attracting quality members. Is everything perfect? Nope. But the sky isn't falling.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by carnation

if you were going to say something about the Georgetown advisor thinking that only the majority white GLOs had anything bad going, this needed to be said. I still think that all GLOs have much to contribute, though.

You took from that what you felt like taking from it. What I said was:

I am growing increasingly concerned that the culture of mainly white fraternities and sororities is one that reinforces white supremacy, even in the presence of black members; that reinforces sexism and sexual violence; and fosters a sense of generational entitlement.


My concern about this doesn't negate my concern about violence in black fraternities. You want to make this a "we're all in the same boat" conversation, but we are not. Stop.

[carnation]

We are all in the same boat. We want our GLOs to survive despite a-hole individuals within and without who are trying to drive them into the ground.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Kevin

That's really our culture? You know this? Such blanket statements are as offensive as the crap coming out of these very few racist asshole chapters. In the SAE case, the national organization caught wind of what happened and shut that chapter down and expelled or is in the process of expelling everyone responsible. In the case of Pi Kapa Phi, as soon as their national organization was notified, the chapter was placed on suspension and is under investigation. What the hell makes you think our culture reinforces white supremacy when the actions of our national organizations when faced with isolated cases of chapters behaving badly could not possibly rationally give that appearance?

LOL.... yes, that is your culture because that is the culture of unchecked whiteness.

Be offended by that, not by me saying so.

[*winter*]

Men...not boys. YES. If you're over 18 and can go to jail and go to war, you are a man or a woman. Boys and girls are under 18. They may lack some of the tact and life experiences of those older, but they are expected not to do crap like this.

I don't want to turn this into a race war, but what if this book was found in an urban neighborhood, written by poor and/or minority kids? Would they be boys being boys then? College kids get a pass for a lot of things.