Gay Emory Student Dragged From Frat Party

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So it would be fair to say here that neither party used good judgment, that the newspaper seems to have continued that trend by publishing this story, giving anonymity to the complainant whilst publicly trashing Mr. Smith.

This is a whole big ball 'o fail.

If that simplistic and surface-level conclusion is all this boils down to then we could've stopped at page 1.

[srmom]

Originally Posted by lucgreek
If I go to a Tea Party meeting wearing a pro-choice shirt, I'm not doing anything wrong per-say, but I'm definitely asking for trouble. If someone does something to me physically, obviously they are wrong. But it doesn't mean I'm completely innocent for going somewhere to get a reaction out of people. "

Is this really comparable?

I think that's a good analogy - the short skirt one - NO.

At my son's fraternity, they have an enormous bouncer at the door and only invited guests are allowed in - even at parent's weekend, the bouncer was making sure that the people coming in were supposed to be there.

This is a RM policy, but it sure saves issues like this from occurring.

And, if I walked into a party dressed as a Wizard, complete with Wizard hat, I'd definitely be doing it for effect and would expect a reaction. I would also expect to be kicked out of the party unless the party was a costume event.

I find it hard to believe this young man didn't know this, if this old lady does...

Doesn't mean I agree with him getting roughed up - noone deserves that, but I agree with the using your good judgement part. Isn't that what we teach our kids? Don't make a spectacle of yourself and don't ask for trouble - this boy did both.

[knight_shadow]

^^^ That's a horrible example.

The rain didn't see an opportunity to flood you and set its sights specifically on you.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

^^^ That's a horrible example.

The rain didn't see an opportunity to flood you and set its sights specifically on you.

Hell, for the analogy to work, it would prob have to be the weatherman.

[agzg]

I don't think the kid needed to be choked out or dragged out of the party. He may have been kicked out but he didn't ask or need to be assaulted.

And no, it's never the victim's fault ever in cases of rape, EVER. I don't care if he or she dressed provocatively. I don't care if he or she drank too much. I don't care if he or she went to the rapist fraternity house. I don't care. It's never the victim's fault.

It's not this kid's fault he got his ass beat. At all. And the kid who did it took the opportunity just like a rapist would his or her victim. He picked on someone he saw as vulnerable or weak. Period.

Just because there are ways a potential victim can decrease the probability they're attacked doesn't mean it's their fault, IN ANY WAY, if they weren't using them at the time.

People need to keep their hands to themselves.

The flooding analogy is a major fail.

[DrPhil]

LOL. No offense, sigmadiva, but "fuck off" is one of my favorite phrases. LOL.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL. No offense, sigmadiva, but "fuck off" is one of my favorite phrases. LOL.

Glad to help.

[KSUViolet06]

Wow at the rape justifications going around in here. Geez.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Wow at the rape justifications going around in here. Geez.

No, you see, the rape isn't JUSTIFIED, it's just a natural conclusion to a night of DRINKING where you pass out where you SHOULDN'T.

It's QED but you go to hell at the end.

[KSig RC]

Also I want to point out the insanity of claiming OTHER PEOPLE are all "wahh wahh it's other peoples' fault" when sigmadiva won't put personal responsibility (see, that buzzword again!) on the actual rapist.

You're ALLOWING a rapist to say "well, it's other peoples' fault too." You HAVE to understand this. That's why I'm putting words in caps. Come on.

Also, that's a theoretical rapist - which is the best kind.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Also I want to point out the insanity of claiming OTHER PEOPLE are all "wahh wahh it's other peoples' fault" when sigmadiva won't put personal responsibility (see, that buzzword again!) on the actual rapist.

You're ALLOWING a rapist to say "well, it's other peoples' fault too." You HAVE to understand this. That's why I'm putting words in caps. Come on.

Also, that's a theoretical rapist - which is the best kind.

Why does my case management group topic always line up with the GC discussion.

I spent two separate hours today trying to put personal responsibility into the heads of people who think that it's not lying if you get your friend to tell your girl that you were with him last night and not another girl.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Also I want to point out the insanity of claiming OTHER PEOPLE are all "wahh wahh it's other peoples' fault" when sigmadiva won't put personal responsibility (see, that buzzword again!) on the actual rapist.

I think you have not read carefully what I have said. Yes, it is the rapists fault, for sure. But if I don't have to put myself in a situation that leaves me vulnerable, then I should just not involve myself in that situation *in the first place.*

You're ALLOWING a rapist to say "well, it's other peoples' fault too." You HAVE to understand this. That's why I'm putting words in caps. Come on.

Also, that's a theoretical rapist - which is the best kind.

I do. I get your point. Believe me I do.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Yes, it is the rapists fault, for sure. But if I don't have to put myself in a situation that leaves me vulnerable, then I should just not involve myself in that situation *in the first place.*

I've read carefully, which is how I've expertly diagnosed your exceptional cognitive dissonance. (NOTE: I don't diagnose things, and I'm not an expert)

Here's the thing - you're essentially saying "it's the rapist's fault, but she didn't have to be there in the first place." This is the same as saying "she did something wrong" because, after all, she chose a bad situation over a good one - which is blaming the victim. It can't be both - it can't be wholly one person's fault, but the other person contributed. So we simply cannot, cannot hedge and say "it's the rapist's fault, BUT..." in any way. We can argue about the dude who didn't buy insurance and his house burned down, but here, there's another element involved: human choice. The guy made a choice and that eliminates ANY issues from the woman's side - even "putting herself at risk."

I know you really don't want to blame the victim - I honestly think you don't feel you are blaming the victim, and instead think it's a matter of a horrible man and a woman who made questionable or unfortunate decisions. But there isn't more than 100% blame here, and it can't be both.

Similarly, saying "I wouldn't have done ______" is usually the essence of cognitive dissonance, and (to come full circle) is Page 1 of the "how to get women to let a guy off for rape" defense attorney's handbook (which was my original point). It's all good - it's a strong natural force, and we all do it.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I've read carefully, which is how I've expertly diagnosed your exceptional cognitive dissonance. (NOTE: I don't diagnose things, and I'm not an expert)

Here's the thing - you're essentially saying "it's the rapist's fault, but she didn't have to be there in the first place." This is the same as saying "she did something wrong" because, after all, she chose a bad situation over a good one - which is blaming the victim. It can't be both - it can't be wholly one person's fault, but the other person contributed. So we simply cannot, cannot hedge and say "it's the rapist's fault, BUT..." in any way. We can argue about the dude who didn't buy insurance and his house burned down, but here, there's another element involved: human choice. The guy made a choice and that eliminates ANY issues from the woman's side - even "putting herself at risk."

I know you really don't want to blame the victim - I honestly think you don't feel you are blaming the victim, and instead think it's a matter of a horrible man and a woman who made questionable or unfortunate decisions. But there isn't more than 100% blame here, and it can't be both.

Similarly, saying "I wouldn't have done ______" is usually the essence of cognitive dissonance, and (to come full circle) is Page 1 of the "how to get women to let a guy off for rape" defense attorney's handbook (which was my original point). It's all good - it's a strong natural force, and we all do it.

Okay, last post tonight...for real. I'll have to catch up in the morning.

So, here goes.

The article was posted in the OP. I read it.

Based on the account, the way I interpreted the events was this gay guy walked into the private party in a private residence of a fraternity (that I think he knew something about), and based on his attire, it caused a fight.

Should the fraternity guy have put his hands on him, no.

But, by the same token, the gay guy should not have presented himself in a way that provoked the incident - that is where, in this case, I blame the gay guy. It was a situation specific incident.

Now, had this gay guy been walking down the street, and the events occurred the same way, then, by all means, the fraternity is 100% to blame.

What I am saying is that I don't think the gay guy is completely innocent.


THEN!!! Just as that discussion died down, it was you, I believe, who decided to stir the pot, and bring rape into it, by making a similar comparison to the OP.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Based on the account, the way I interpreted the events was this gay guy walked into the private party in a private residence of a fraternity (that I think he knew something about), and based on his attire, it caused a fight.

From the response:

This whole dumb event occurred because I was drunk and thought it would be funny to throw someone out to the wrath of the huge security guard at the door, and the most ridiculous person that naturally stood out to me was this Wizard dressed kid. I purposely egged him on a little bit, he snapped back at me, and I threw him out.

What if The Wizard was wearing a baseball cap of a rival school? Or what if he was wearing white after labor day? Would Adam Smith still be justified in assaulting him?

Should the fraternity guy have put his hands on him, no.

Then it's not The Wizard's fault.

But, by the same token, the gay guy should not have presented himself in a way that provoked the incident - that is where, in this case, I blame the gay guy. It was a situation specific incident.

You really don't see how this line of thinking causes people to compare this to blaming a rape victim? That's sad.