Is hazing the best way?

[AGDee]

I think you must have had some rough experiences with required study hours, EE-BO. We require study hours for all of our members and, while chapters can determine the number/type, generally they have a sliding scale, based on GPA and computer lab hours count. There is a lot of flexibility in how they can be set up, from study groups for members who are in the same classes/majors. You can pair up an upperclassman with a new member/associate/whatever your group calls them who has the same major. You can set up tutoring opportunities so someone can say "I'm struggling with ____, who can help?" You can get bigs brothers and little brothers to spend some time on academics together.

I'm not a big fan of weekly quizzes, but I'm more of a fan of trivia game type methods of learning the "lore". Maybe a lot of this stuff is too girly for fraternity men but I've seen some really creative stuff like "what would this founder's facebook page look like?" to learn about the founders. Or, make it more businesslike and created a LinkedIn for each founder.

You can earn letters without being hazed. There can be expectations that membership is based on. You can try to take current traditions and change them up slightly so as not to "lose" traditions, but make them less risky.

Ultimately, you have to have buy in from the chapter or nothing will work. Getting THEIR ideas is a good way to get them to support the program.

[33girl]

Too often (esp if other Greeks are doing them) study hours at the library or other campus buildings turn into social hours. There isn't always a place conducive to studying in the house.

Regardless of national rules, the way I determine hazing is whether an activity has ANYTHING to do with learning things about the national org, the local chapter or the national and local Greek community - or is it something that they're just being made to do for the hell of it, so the initiated members can have "power" over them? Unless your founders include Jack Daniels, Jack LaLanne and the Marquis de Sade, that lets out drinking, physical hazing and beating. OP - maybe look at your pledge program in that way and then go from there.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Unless your founders include Jack Daniels, Jack LaLanne and the Marquis de Sade

Best. Fraternity. Evar.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Best. Fraternity. Evar.

LOL.

However, for national organizations, there is no such thing as "regardless of national rules." Generally speaking, collegiate chapter evaluations as they pertain to hazing should be based on the national GLO's policies and procedures, the school's anti-hazing policies, and any laws that are in place.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL.

However, for national organizations, there is no such thing as "regardless of national rules." Generally speaking, collegiate chapter evaluations as they pertain to hazing should be based on the national GLO's policies and procedures, the school's anti-hazing policies, and any laws that are in place.

I know that. I just think that given what he's said so far, if he comes in saying "well these are our national rules and blah blah blah" he'll get nowhere, if not make things even worse. I'm suggesting he come at it from the back door, as it were.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know that. I just think that given what he's said so far, if he comes in saying "well these are our national rules and blah blah blah" he'll get nowhere, if not make things even worse. I'm suggesting he come at it from the back door, as it were.

If his national organization doesn't do "inake training," his chapter can discuss conducting an intake training where they remind themselves of their organization's policies and the proper ways to teach and reinforce those policies. Expousing personal opinions of the utility of some of the (hazing) practices can fail miserably--and people can end up trading one form of hazing for a perceivably less harmful form of hazing that is still hazing. Instead, I think that communicating organizational rules in a brotherly fashion is the context in which all of this should be done because those who can't grasp the brotherhood of it all will hopefully grasp a deterrence effect.

One of the problems that I have with what you said "the way I determine hazing is whether an activity has ANYTHING to do with learning things about the national org, the local chapter or the national and local Greek community" is that there has always been hazing that was done to get people to learn/memorize and relay information. For instance, getting pledges to jog around a track for 5 miles while reciting the Greek alphabet and chapter information works wonders for some people because some of them NEVER EVER forget that experience and what they learned. Then they have the next sets of pledges for years to come do it because it works for learning stuff. Then it's a slippery slope because someone will eventually refuse to do it, complain, or get hurt from doing it.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Too often (esp if other Greeks are doing them) study hours at the library or other campus buildings turn into social hours. There isn't always a place conducive to studying in the house.

AGDee, what 33girl says is exactly the trouble I encountered. We always did study hours at the house- which has obvious problems. At one point, my chapter starting using a classroom after hours- but with just pledges and a couple of actives in there, it quickly devolved into "social time".

If we had been at the library- different story potentially.

My issue with study hours in general, however, was something that is core to my personality- as long as I am getting the job done I absolutely resist any effort by others to force me into some kind of management of my time etc. It is more genuinely problematic for science or engineering majors who may do all of their studying in labs where they have instant access to classmates or to online systems to facilitate their work.

I do agree however with the mentoring idea- be it actives or alumni. When I was an advisor, we had an alumnus who was a college professor and served as the academic advisor. He made a huge difference for the chapter- presentations once a semester on tips for studying, career advice and also general academic mentoring. It had a profound impact on the chapter's GPA.

To the OP- hope we have not scared you off. I am being aggressive with my questions because what you want to do is something that someone in every chapter wants to do every year. It is a common, and noble goal. But most of the time it never gets anywhere because the person taking the initiative is not considering some of the factors already discussed here and ends up discouraged- which is bad for that person and a loss for the chapter.

[AGDee]

I had the same issue with study hours until we went to the sliding scale system which greatly reduced how many hours I had to do I did have a hard time focusing when there were lots of people around, even when they were quiet. I often tutored other sisters during study hours, which was still helpful to the chapter's overall goal... maintaining a high GPA. We had "honor hours" where you just turned in your hours and "proctored hours" which included library hours with sisters or labs of any kind, actually. The higher your GPA, the fewer "proctored hours" you had to do. I could see it becoming social hour pretty easily under some circumstances. They usually included time at the tutoring center as proctored hours too. I think chapters need to find what works for their group.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I had the same issue with study hours until we went to the sliding scale system which greatly reduced how many hours I had to do I did have a hard time focusing when there were lots of people around, even when they were quiet. I often tutored other sisters during study hours, which was still helpful to the chapter's overall goal... maintaining a high GPA. We had "honor hours" where you just turned in your hours and "proctored hours" which included library hours with sisters or labs of any kind, actually. The higher your GPA, the fewer "proctored hours" you had to do. I could see it becoming social hour pretty easily under some circumstances. They usually included time at the tutoring center as proctored hours too. I think chapters need to find what works for their group.

This system is EXACTLY what my chapter could have used- and I hope a lot of scholastic chairs read it and take note. A perfect mix of trusting your fellow brothers/sisters as adults, and also looking out for them at a formative time in life.

[djpsk21]

EE-BO, you have not scared me away, haha. Just been taking it all in and thinking...while juggling classes of course.

Okay, here is the thing. I am not trying to come across as "holier than though" or that I am inherently "better" than any of my brothers...my issues lies in the fact that I transferred in recently. I am from a chapter where hazing was virtually not existent so this is a new environment for me. My story has encouraged and convinced some brothers that change is necessary, not just for their own safety but for the betterment of the pledge as well.

The part that gets tricky is that even though they want to change, they want to somehow hold on to the "spirit" of hell week...in a sense...but not the dangerous, humiliating, ridiculing part of it. They still want to class to really come together that week and help each other out and feel like they are truly a unit...which I can understand that, but the way that has been cannot be anymore...so...

I have been trying to brainstorm some "middle ground" tactics and after talking with some friends at various other fraternities, here is kind of what has been compiled. Most of this list actually came from a friend of mine down south. My question is, would this be okay? Or is this just another "diminished" form of hazing and would be unacceptable as well?

1. The pledges stay at the house for the entire week. This is for a few reasons. One is to remove them from the normal pressures and constraints of society so they can really focus on the lifelong commitment they are about to take. Give them a chance to really get to know each other, the brothers and be truly comfortable in the house by living there.

-This will NOT be a time for brothers to take "advantage" of having the pledges around. No personal amusement, ridicule, and adequate and appropriate time will be given for sleep each night...at least 8-9 hours. This is a time for THEM to come together, not for brothers to have one last week of "fun"

2. They can only talk to pledge brothers and initiated brothers, except for emergencies and unavoidable classroom exercises...and study groups. This is again, for them to really start focusing on the next step they are about to take. A chance for them to really get to know one another and again, to focus.

3. No electronics for the week, except for necessary classroom exercises, homework, projects etc. So, no TV, Computer, facebook, etc. This is kind of like a "20th century detox". Instead of spending mindless hours watching tv, surfing the web, etc, they are to use this time to read, do homework, go to the gym, go outside to play a sport, just something that doesn't involve a tv screen. This is to also help them to meditate and maybe even force someone of them to actually talk to one another. Not that they don't want too, haha, but in todays age, its so easy to be in the same room as someone as else but be so engrossed in tv/computer that you barely talk at all.

4. They must be with another pledge brother at all times. This takes careful planning and proper time management. Whether going to class, going to the gym, going to the library, etc, they need to have at least one other pledge brother with them. This goes back to reinforcing having a brother with you, truly beginning to create that lifelong bond of friendship and really getting to know your pledge brother before becoming a lifetime brother.

5. Start a project on Monday that will need to be finished by the end of the week. It can be an addition/improvement to the house or something that is simply hung up in the house. This is like the pledges gift to the house, if you will. They can be creative here, the sky is the limit. And they must all have some part in completing it.

I would like to say that in NO WAY do I or will I support negative reinforcement. No punishments for "failure to comply" rather encouragement and positive motivation. Reminding them or explaining to them WHY we are asking them to do certain things, what we hope to accomplish, etc. Further, i will reiterate that they pledges are not here for the brothers personal amusement...that will be strictly enforced and luckily, I have a few brothers who already agree with me on this front so I will have support.

Is this just a more "diminished" version of hazing and the week should just be cancelled? I am not saying this is exactly what is going to be done, this is just a list I compiled while talking to friends in other chapters. I thought most of this might help to meet that middle ground with some of the guys. It removes the pointless exercising, ridicule and humiliation but I think it would still keep that "building that bond of brotherhood" aspect...just in a more positive way.

I am really hoping to get some opnions on this list and maybe even refine it before bringing up to MY nationals, which I intend to do...I just don't want to bring unwanted suspicion to my chapter...they are wanting to change...and I am simply trying to help.

[33girl]

If that's diminished, I'd hate to see what you're doing now.

But I don't have a penis so I'm excusing myself from this one.

[lucgreek]

1, 2, 3, and 4 are considered hazing. Get rid of 2 completely, it doesn't serve any purpose and will be abused. 4 is pretty pointless as well.

1, and 3 might be work if the entire chapter participated. That way it could become more of a chapter bonding experience. But good luck getting people to give up watching football.

I actually think 5 is a good idea.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

EE-BO, you have not scared me away, haha. Just been taking it all in and thinking...while juggling classes of course.

Okay, here is the thing. I am not trying to come across as "holier than though" or that I am inherently "better" than any of my brothers...my issues lies in the fact that I transferred in recently. I am from a chapter where hazing was virtually not existent so this is a new environment for me. My story has encouraged and convinced some brothers that change is necessary, not just for their own safety but for the betterment of the pledge as well.

>> Tread carefully. Is this your first semester there?? You are new to the chapter and unless you are witnessing obvious danger, should acclimate and understand why certain things are being done the way they are, before making sweeping changes. If you are really interested in being part of evolving your pledge process, join whatever committee is responsible.

The part that gets tricky is that even though they want to change, they want to somehow hold on to the "spirit" of hell week...in a sense...but not the dangerous, humiliating, ridiculing part of it. They still want to class to really come together that week and help each other out and feel like they are truly a unit...which I can understand that, but the way that has been cannot be anymore...so...

>> It sounds like they want to make sure that the pledges are "scared" and feel like they have to "earn" membership. For sake of the modern RM standards, I believe that a mind shift has to occur. For example, instead of "requiring" the pledges to be scared during the week, find a way to teach them RESPECT (a good way to do this is to set an example). Instead of having them do things to "earn" membership or a worthiness of brotherhood, generate opportunities for them to want to show you what they are made of.

I have been trying to brainstorm some "middle ground" tactics and after talking with some friends at various other fraternities, here is kind of what has been compiled. Most of this list actually came from a friend of mine down south. My question is, would this be okay? Or is this just another "diminished" form of hazing and would be unacceptable as well?

>> What works for a particular southern fraternity is not necessarily going to work for your chapter. Talking to people in other fraternities in other parts of the country is not the right way to enact evolution. If you have ideas or questions, talk to others in your organization who are the decision-makers or enforcers, especially the rush committee and pledge educator. I really think that you need to understand the reasons why things are done a certain way before you can suggest changes.

1. The pledges stay at the house for the entire week. This is for a few reasons. One is to remove them from the normal pressures and constraints of society so they can really focus on the lifelong commitment they are about to take. Give them a chance to really get to know each other, the brothers and be truly comfortable in the house by living there.

-This will NOT be a time for brothers to take "advantage" of having the pledges around. No personal amusement, ridicule, and adequate and appropriate time will be given for sleep each night...at least 8-9 hours. This is a time for THEM to come together, not for brothers to have one last week of "fun"

2. They can only talk to pledge brothers and initiated brothers, except for emergencies and unavoidable classroom exercises...and study groups. This is again, for them to really start focusing on the next step they are about to take. A chance for them to really get to know one another and again, to focus.

>> I get your reasoning for the above two, but be careful when you are forcing isolation. When I was in school, this was common for "hell week", but it might be considered hazing in your organization/school/state.

3. No electronics for the week, except for necessary classroom exercises, homework, projects etc. So, no TV, Computer, facebook, etc. This is kind of like a "20th century detox". Instead of spending mindless hours watching tv, surfing the web, etc, they are to use this time to read, do homework, go to the gym, go outside to play a sport, just something that doesn't involve a tv screen. This is to also help them to meditate and maybe even force someone of them to actually talk to one another. Not that they don't want too, haha, but in todays age, its so easy to be in the same room as someone as else but be so engrossed in tv/computer that you barely talk at all.

>> Realize that a lot of work is done on computers - research, writing papers, logging onto a professor's class web page/syllabus, etc. For some majors (journalism, business, marketing, film/music, etc., you have to monitor the news or other things via TV or computer). Many business periodicals are electronic as well.

4. They must be with another pledge brother at all times. This takes careful planning and proper time management. Whether going to class, going to the gym, going to the library, etc, they need to have at least one other pledge brother with them. This goes back to reinforcing having a brother with you, truly beginning to create that lifelong bond of friendship and really getting to know your pledge brother before becoming a lifetime brother.

>> As a pledge in Alpha Xi, we had "buddy day" once a week with a fellow pledge. Each week, we had someone different. Although I found great benefits to this once a week, I think that doing it for 7 days and with a bunch of different people would be a logistical nightmare. It takes a lot of time and energy to sort out the details. What does the work involved teach them? What about all the wasted time over a week, scheduling and waiting? At least on the one day a week when we had a buddy, we had the whole six days before to schedule everything and figure out what to do during breaks.

5. Start a project on Monday that will need to be finished by the end of the week. It can be an addition/improvement to the house or something that is simply hung up in the house. This is like the pledges gift to the house, if you will. They can be creative here, the sky is the limit. And they must all have some part in completing it.

>> Many fraternities and sororities have a project as a formal part of their pledge/new member program. There are usually monetary or time budgets, because they have school, clubs, job or other fraternity/sorority commitments on top of it all. The idea of building an addition is bit nutty, especially since you usually need permits and licensed contractors for things. The fact that you are throwing out ideas from opposite ends of the spectrum suggest that you haven't thought this through.

I would like to say that in NO WAY do I or will I support negative reinforcement. No punishments for "failure to comply" rather encouragement and positive motivation. Reminding them or explaining to them WHY we are asking them to do certain things, what we hope to accomplish, etc. Further, i will reiterate that they pledges are not here for the brothers personal amusement...that will be strictly enforced and luckily, I have a few brothers who already agree with me on this front so I will have support.

Is this just a more "diminished" version of hazing and the week should just be cancelled? I am not saying this is exactly what is going to be done, this is just a list I compiled while talking to friends in other chapters. I thought most of this might help to meet that middle ground with some of the guys. It removes the pointless exercising, ridicule and humiliation but I think it would still keep that "building that bond of brotherhood" aspect...just in a more positive way.

I am really hoping to get some opnions on this list and maybe even refine it before bringing up to MY nationals, which I intend to do...I just don't want to bring unwanted suspicion to my chapter...they are wanting to change...and I am simply trying to help.

>> First, anything can become hazing if the wrong intent or people are involved. Like I said, it's a mindset shift. That isn't going to happen in one week or semester.

Second, some of your suggestions can easily become pointless. Traditions become traditions for reasons. If you don't have a reason (or no one can remember why), doesn't it become pointless?

Third, you don't have the authority to make these changes, or to monitor or enforce them. These suggestions can also be considered hazing in your particular org, school, or state. Some may consider these "rules" as depriving the pledges of Constitutional rights and privacy. The two inherent problems are, YOU DON'T KNOW what the rules are, and You don't have the authority to monitor or enforce them.

You really need to spend time understanding why things are done, before coming along and asking the chapter to change a whole bunch of things mid semester. You probably don't know most of the chapter's history. Learn it. Respect that the chapter has been surviving/excelling years before you came. Lead by example, not lists and lectures. Live your ritual's ideals and perhaps you can inspire others to take a look at the traditions.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

1, 2, 3, and 4 are considered hazing.

That depends on how hazing is defined by the fraternity in question, by the school and question and by applicable state law. While I agree there's a good chance these activities/requirements would be considered hazing, I wouldn't assume that they automatically are.

Meanwhile, djpsk21, I agree with ree-Xi that number 4 sounds like a logistical nightmare. What about getting to classes if no pledge brothers have classes in the same area? The minimal benefit that might come from this requirement will be far outweighed by the hassle actually experienced.

I also agree with ree-Xi that if you are new to this chapter, you have to tread carefully.

And I can't help but wonder if you're trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd be willing to bet that your inter/national HQ has resources on how to replace Hell Week with something that fits your particular values and that appropriately prepares pledges for your initiation.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

Third, you don't have the authority to make these changes, or to monitor or enforce them.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That depends on how hazing is defined by the fraternity in question, by the school and question and by applicable state law.

And I can't help but wonder if you're trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd be willing to bet that your inter/national HQ has resources on how to replace Hell Week with something that fits your particular values and that appropriately prepares pledges for your initiation.

And this gets us back to drawing board of why threads like this are pointless. Members need to be concerned with their GLO's and school's policies and procedures and not with what GCers think.