College's Too Fat to Graduate rule under fire.

[33girl]

We had to take a PE credit. I took volleyball my first semester to get it out of the way. As Kappamd said though, the "physical" part certainly was a stretch...we still laugh about the girls who took bowling and riding on the bowling bus.

Using a BMI as a determiner of fitness or healthiness is ridiculous, especially at that age. My BMI was probably far under 30 in college, and my diet consisted of yogurt, pizza, and kamikazes.

[angels&angles]

We had to take 5 (!) PE classes to graduate. They've since dropped the requirement down to four. We also had to pass a swim test to graduate. However, my PEs were Snowboarding, Ice Skating, Modern Dance, Self-Defense, and Badminton, so I really took the "non-exercise" route as much as possible. PE classes were some of the highlights of my semester, since I usually took them with my friends and they were easy to get good grades in. However, most people I know didn't have a PE requirement in college and laugh at me when I talk about mine.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It's not a great measure when you are looking at the line between normal and overweight for athletes with high muscle content. It is a VERY good measure of the level of obesity. You aren't going to find a healthy athlete with a BMI over 30. As for extreme weight lifters, they usually are over weight and can be obese.

An unfit girl, for instance, that still looks thin to normal can have a high BMI. (Mine when I was 19 was very high for my age range and I was a size 4...but ate McDonald's every day because I could get away with it and never exercised, so my muscle to fat ratio was extremely low. Any meat I had on my bones was skin and pure fat.) I think they should require everyone to take it...I was required to take health and one 1 hour activity class and if it weren't for that I'd probably still avoid exercising and wouldn't have adjusted my eating habits.

They should NOT look at the line for athletes. I will never have the BMI of an athlete, but I can aim to be healthy in as many ways as possible (which is about food and exercise, not just one or the other). And no one should HAVE to have the BMI of an extremely fit athlete. Healthy and normal is a good goal to have.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DGTess

In other words, we will set "their" life goals for them.

If a student's life goal doesn't include, particularly at this point in his life, being healthy, what business is it of the faculty? They're there to guide, not to indoctrinate.

But the ditzoid who doesn't bother to ensure she meets graduation requirements hasn't learned spit, and needs to learn a little personal responsibility.

What if my "goals" for earning a literature degree did not include any British Literature, say from . . . oh just throwing out 1750-1950. Should I have been eligible to opt out of those two courses?

Let's not pretend that the college doesn't already do this in dozens of other areas, ranging from residence life to diploma requirements. Schools already require physicals and certain inoculations. What's so different about fat content? Hurt feelings? That seems . . . poor.

[LXA SE285]

Oral Roberts University screens (or used to screen) applicants they deemed to fat to matriculate.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

What if my "goals" for earning a literature degree did not include any British Literature, say from . . . oh just throwing out 1750-1950. Should I have been eligible to opt out of those two courses?

Let's not pretend that the college doesn't already do this in dozens of other areas, ranging from residence life to diploma requirements. Schools already require physicals and certain inoculations. What's so different about fat content? Hurt feelings? That seems . . . poor.

That's a specific degree you're talking about, though. I'm sure a science major isn't forced to take BritLit 101. This doesn't have anything to do with degrees being granted, and I really question how it's going to assist any graduate in furthering their career. "Ah! You graduated from Lincoln U! Your BMI must be stellar - here, have this $100k advertising job immediately!"

I mean, if they were doing this to phys ed majors, I don't think anyone would be blinking an eyelash.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

An unfit girl, for instance, that still looks thin to normal can have a high BMI. (Mine when I was 19 was very high for my age range and I was a size 4...but ate McDonald's every day because I could get away with it and never exercised, so my muscle to fat ratio was extremely low. Any meat I had on my bones was skin and pure fat.) I think they should require everyone to take it...I was required to take health and one 1 hour activity class and if it weren't for that I'd probably still avoid exercising and wouldn't have adjusted my eating habits.

They should NOT look at the line for athletes. I will never have the BMI of an athlete, but I can aim to be healthy in as many ways as possible (which is about food and exercise, not just one or the other). And no one should HAVE to have the BMI of an extremely fit athlete. Healthy and normal is a good goal to have.

I think that you are missing the point. Your BMI may be "high" but no obese person will ever fit in a size 4 and no size 4 person has ever scored a BMI of 30! Yes, thin people can have bad eating habits, but if you look at people who have BMIs above 30, they have significantly worse eating habits and eat significantly more food than people who are thin and "say" they have bad eating habits. The obese patient will eat bad foods AND in LARGE quantities. No matter what the public tries to tell you, people don't become obese by eating the same amount of food as thin people.

I do agree, however, that Healthy and Normal is a good goal to have for everyone. The class would be helpful for all, but in the end, maybe not as needed.

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I do agree with this statement. Rather than argue that people that are obese are healthy, it is probably more appropriate to argue that EVERY student could benefit from learning healthy eating and living habits. One of the most harmful things we've done in our society is convince ourselves that since skinny people may not exercise or eat well that they are equally as "unhealthy" as obese people are. The research actually shows that normal weight people who exercise live longer than normal weight people who don't exercise who live longer than overweight people who exercise who live longer than overweight people that don't exercise. We've also done a disservice to people by not calling obesity when it's appropriate. It's a shock to know you are obese, but it gives you a realistic picture to the health risks you face.

I think this is well-written and I really agree with it.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Kappamd

Maybe I missed this, but how do they figure out who is >30? Is there a class weigh-in or something?

Also, I was under the impression that most/all universities required some sort of physical education class. Am I grossly misinformed?

We didn't have to take a phys ed in college but I took Tennis for 2 years anyways just to keep with it. (played all through high school) Most of my friends either worked out at the fitness center or took Yoga or something.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

That's a specific degree you're talking about, though. I'm sure a science major isn't forced to take BritLit 101. This doesn't have anything to do with degrees being granted, and I really question how it's going to assist any graduate in furthering their career. "Ah! You graduated from Lincoln U! Your BMI must be stellar - here, have this $100k advertising job immediately!"

I mean, if they were doing this to phys ed majors, I don't think anyone would be blinking an eyelash.

I understand what you're saying, but you could just as easily go with "core credits" or whatever and get around your objection. The fact of the matter is, colleges have had arbitrary standards students must meet in areas ranging from having sex to alcohol to education, and this doesn't seem out of line in comparison.

Beyond that, even if the "utilitarian" reason most people go to college is to get a job, the college is NOT (and should not) be slavish to that standard in the slightest. Colleges are not job factories nor career assembly plants - I'd guess every single college/university's motto and purpose statement includes a much grander purpose, whether or not it is met.

[APhiAnna]

I apologize in advance for the novel, but here are some thoughts.

I think that targeting people with a BMI over 30 is ridiculous and they should either make everybody take the class or have nobody take that.

With that being said, there are so many excuses in this thread that I can't take it anymore.

First, yes you can be skinny and unhealthy. But you cannot have a BMI of 30 (except for a negligible percentage of world class athletes) and call yourself healthy. There is no way.

I understand the limitations of the BMI system. For example, my brothers lift weights frequently and their BMI likely says they are more overweight than they are in reality. But that is not a difference of more than a couple digits.

I am really frustrated with the commonplace American rhetoric that IMPLIES (not SAYS, so save the counter-argument) that because some skinny people are malnourished that it is just as good to be obese. It is ridiculous! Sure there are some people out there who have super-metabolisms who can eat junk all day and stay skinny. But let's be honest, how big is that percentage really? And how many stay that way after their late teens/early twenties?

The other common argument is even more ridiculous: the statement that some people with low BMIs have eating disorders so that is just as unhealthy. Sure, a girl who has a low BMI because of an eating disorder is unhealthy, but if you have to use that as a foil for your obese BMI then you should already realize this hurts your argument more than it helps. Plus the BMI system ACCOUNTS for people who have "too low" of a BMI. It certainly does not claim they are healthy.

The truth of the matter is that after a certain age, the majority of people whose BMIs fall into the "healthy" range really ARE healthy. They eat well and they exercise. And guess what? By using portion control and restraint you can have an incredible body and skip a couple days of working out, eat a large french fries every now and then, etc. Since the rest of their habits are healthy, they can afford to indulge occasionally.

Sure, there is a genetic component to weight, and certain health issues can cause you to pack it on, but once you are reaching a BMI of 30??? You are playing yourself if you are telling yourself that is healthy.

There is a difference between self-acceptance and healthy. If you have no problems being obese and can accept yourself for it, that is fine. I understand that there is a lot of unhealthy pressure (especially against girls) to look a certain way. However you do have to understand that it is NOT healthy. Please do not tear down the accomplishments of being who try to be healthy so that they can live longer (scientifically proven) and live a healthier life.

[DGTess]

The original case, though, is just another instance of an implicit statement that you're too stupid to know what's right, and I (in this case, faculty and/or administration) will play the "for your own good" card.

This is NOT the way to teach people to make decisions, accept responsibility, and abide by consequences.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I understand what you're saying, but you could just as easily go with "core credits" or whatever and get around your objection. The fact of the matter is, colleges have had arbitrary standards students must meet in areas ranging from having sex to alcohol to education, and this doesn't seem out of line in comparison.

Core credits usually make you take A lit course, A science course, etc. There's a lot of wiggle room and you can find at least one thing you don't hate.

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree. The fact of the matter is, it's targeting all the wrong people, at the wrong age. Like I said, I'm sure my BMI was far below 30 in college. It's certainly not because I ate in a healthy manner or exercised - it was sheer luck and/or heredity. What usually happens is once you hit 35 or so, even if you were rail thin, your metabolism goes into the toilet and you gain weight. I wish I would have gotten more used to having to work out, etc when I was younger so I'd be better at it now. Not that I think the college should have taught me that, just saying that I wouldn't be a "target" for this class at age 21, but I might be now.

And I'm sure there are people who are overweight in college who once they get out of school, lose the weight. Keep in mind, there are guys who are STILL growing till around age 25.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Core credits usually make you take A lit course, A science course, etc. There's a lot of wiggle room and you can find at least one thing you don't hate.

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree. The fact of the matter is, it's targeting all the wrong people, at the wrong age. Like I said, I'm sure my BMI was far below 30 in college. It's certainly not because I ate in a healthy manner or exercised - it was sheer luck and/or heredity. What usually happens is once you hit 35 or so, even if you were rail thin, your metabolism goes into the toilet and you gain weight. I wish I would have gotten more used to having to work out, etc when I was younger so I'd be better at it now. Not that I think the college should have taught me that, just saying that I wouldn't be a "target" for this class at age 21, but I might be now.

And I'm sure there are people who are overweight in college who once they get out of school, lose the weight. Keep in mind, there are guys who are STILL growing till around age 25.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

How is "Healthiness/Exercise for BMI Over 30" targeting the wrong people? Look - the hereditary argument is moot. If you were "naturally" skinny, then you had to do less work at that age - you were at a natural advantage. This means that YOU DID NOT NEED the class - others, who had a natural disadvantage, DID. This is, like, the most obvious thing ever when separated from the stigma of (apparently) calling women fat.

Also the "ALL OR NONE" thing is unreal - I passed out of every single f-ing prereq at my school based on AP scores. That's no different than having an absurdly athletic BMI is it? Jesus Lord.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree.

Then what does it have to do with finishing middle school or getting a high school diploma?

I think saying there's no point in it unless it is your degree is a pretty narrow view of what a college education is supposed to be about.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

This latter part I agree with. I heard an interview with someone from Lincoln (it may have been DeBoy) a week or two ago, and he made a big deal about part of the impetus for this requirement being the problem of obescity among African-Americans, which can lead to other health problems (heart issues, diabetes, etc.). He was laying it out as an HBCU's responsibility to the African-American community, but if that's the reasoning behind it, then it seems everybody should have to take the class, because it's not just about your own health and making good choices for yourself -- it's also about the health of those around you and how you can support healthy choices by others.