College's Too Fat to Graduate rule under fire.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

That's a specific degree you're talking about, though. I'm sure a science major isn't forced to take BritLit 101. This doesn't have anything to do with degrees being granted, and I really question how it's going to assist any graduate in furthering their career. "Ah! You graduated from Lincoln U! Your BMI must be stellar - here, have this $100k advertising job immediately!"

I mean, if they were doing this to phys ed majors, I don't think anyone would be blinking an eyelash.

I understand what you're saying, but you could just as easily go with "core credits" or whatever and get around your objection. The fact of the matter is, colleges have had arbitrary standards students must meet in areas ranging from having sex to alcohol to education, and this doesn't seem out of line in comparison.

Beyond that, even if the "utilitarian" reason most people go to college is to get a job, the college is NOT (and should not) be slavish to that standard in the slightest. Colleges are not job factories nor career assembly plants - I'd guess every single college/university's motto and purpose statement includes a much grander purpose, whether or not it is met.

[APhiAnna]

I apologize in advance for the novel, but here are some thoughts.

I think that targeting people with a BMI over 30 is ridiculous and they should either make everybody take the class or have nobody take that.

With that being said, there are so many excuses in this thread that I can't take it anymore.

First, yes you can be skinny and unhealthy. But you cannot have a BMI of 30 (except for a negligible percentage of world class athletes) and call yourself healthy. There is no way.

I understand the limitations of the BMI system. For example, my brothers lift weights frequently and their BMI likely says they are more overweight than they are in reality. But that is not a difference of more than a couple digits.

I am really frustrated with the commonplace American rhetoric that IMPLIES (not SAYS, so save the counter-argument) that because some skinny people are malnourished that it is just as good to be obese. It is ridiculous! Sure there are some people out there who have super-metabolisms who can eat junk all day and stay skinny. But let's be honest, how big is that percentage really? And how many stay that way after their late teens/early twenties?

The other common argument is even more ridiculous: the statement that some people with low BMIs have eating disorders so that is just as unhealthy. Sure, a girl who has a low BMI because of an eating disorder is unhealthy, but if you have to use that as a foil for your obese BMI then you should already realize this hurts your argument more than it helps. Plus the BMI system ACCOUNTS for people who have "too low" of a BMI. It certainly does not claim they are healthy.

The truth of the matter is that after a certain age, the majority of people whose BMIs fall into the "healthy" range really ARE healthy. They eat well and they exercise. And guess what? By using portion control and restraint you can have an incredible body and skip a couple days of working out, eat a large french fries every now and then, etc. Since the rest of their habits are healthy, they can afford to indulge occasionally.

Sure, there is a genetic component to weight, and certain health issues can cause you to pack it on, but once you are reaching a BMI of 30??? You are playing yourself if you are telling yourself that is healthy.

There is a difference between self-acceptance and healthy. If you have no problems being obese and can accept yourself for it, that is fine. I understand that there is a lot of unhealthy pressure (especially against girls) to look a certain way. However you do have to understand that it is NOT healthy. Please do not tear down the accomplishments of being who try to be healthy so that they can live longer (scientifically proven) and live a healthier life.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I understand what you're saying, but you could just as easily go with "core credits" or whatever and get around your objection. The fact of the matter is, colleges have had arbitrary standards students must meet in areas ranging from having sex to alcohol to education, and this doesn't seem out of line in comparison.

Core credits usually make you take A lit course, A science course, etc. There's a lot of wiggle room and you can find at least one thing you don't hate.

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree. The fact of the matter is, it's targeting all the wrong people, at the wrong age. Like I said, I'm sure my BMI was far below 30 in college. It's certainly not because I ate in a healthy manner or exercised - it was sheer luck and/or heredity. What usually happens is once you hit 35 or so, even if you were rail thin, your metabolism goes into the toilet and you gain weight. I wish I would have gotten more used to having to work out, etc when I was younger so I'd be better at it now. Not that I think the college should have taught me that, just saying that I wouldn't be a "target" for this class at age 21, but I might be now.

And I'm sure there are people who are overweight in college who once they get out of school, lose the weight. Keep in mind, there are guys who are STILL growing till around age 25.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Core credits usually make you take A lit course, A science course, etc. There's a lot of wiggle room and you can find at least one thing you don't hate.

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree. The fact of the matter is, it's targeting all the wrong people, at the wrong age. Like I said, I'm sure my BMI was far below 30 in college. It's certainly not because I ate in a healthy manner or exercised - it was sheer luck and/or heredity. What usually happens is once you hit 35 or so, even if you were rail thin, your metabolism goes into the toilet and you gain weight. I wish I would have gotten more used to having to work out, etc when I was younger so I'd be better at it now. Not that I think the college should have taught me that, just saying that I wouldn't be a "target" for this class at age 21, but I might be now.

And I'm sure there are people who are overweight in college who once they get out of school, lose the weight. Keep in mind, there are guys who are STILL growing till around age 25.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

How is "Healthiness/Exercise for BMI Over 30" targeting the wrong people? Look - the hereditary argument is moot. If you were "naturally" skinny, then you had to do less work at that age - you were at a natural advantage. This means that YOU DID NOT NEED the class - others, who had a natural disadvantage, DID. This is, like, the most obvious thing ever when separated from the stigma of (apparently) calling women fat.

Also the "ALL OR NONE" thing is unreal - I passed out of every single f-ing prereq at my school based on AP scores. That's no different than having an absurdly athletic BMI is it? Jesus Lord.

[pbear19]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Also the "ALL OR NONE" thing is unreal - I passed out of every single f-ing prereq at my school based on AP scores. That's no different than having an absurdly athletic BMI is it? Jesus Lord.

Actually, it's completely different. No one looked at you and said "gee, he *looks* smart enough, let's decide that he doesn't have to take this class because of his appearance." Nope. They took some objective measure of your intellect and determined that you had the requisite knowledge such that you could skip the entry level course.

Just because someone is overweight does not mean they are uneducated about health and fitness.

Again - Just because someone is overweight does not mean they are uneducated about health and fitness. If this class is meant to teach people, then it should be targeted towards those who are uneducated. Yes, there is a chance that most 30+ BMI people need the education. But I guarantee you that not all of them do. Sometimes overweight people have an incredible wealth of knowledge about health and fitness, they simply do not have it in them to apply that knowledge.

The problem here isn't that they have the class. The problem is that the way you "test" out of it is subjective. It has nothing to do with knowledge. And shouldn't it? Shouldn't you only be able to test out of a class if you can demonstrate that you already have that level of knowledge?

What would be so wrong about saying that everyone has to take the class, and if they want to avoid taking it they can test out of it? Not by proving they are thin enough, but by proving they are knowledgeable enough?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Also the "ALL OR NONE" thing is unreal - I passed out of every single f-ing prereq at my school based on AP scores. That's no different than having an absurdly athletic BMI is it?

No, it's very different. You took a test and passed out of it - you showed your knowledge. It wasn't based on a number whose usefulness is debated even within the medical community.

I mean, if you want to determine if people are physically fit, give them a freaking physical fitness test - don't just look at their BMI. And even then, as I said, it should be all or nothing. And even then, I'm sorry, but I just don't think this has anything to do with college.

Elementary school and high school are different than college. Period. They're paid for by the taxpayers and are teaching much younger children.

That's another thing. What about returning students? As I said, when you get older your metabolism goes. It's discriminatory to older students.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Elementary school and high school are different than college. Period. They're paid for by the taxpayers . . . .

So are many colleges, at least in part -- sometimes quite a large part.

I just don't see any problem at all with a college requiring a physical education/health component for all baccalaureate degrees. I'd say historically, it has been the rule rather than the exception.

I do quibble with (okay, laugh at) what has sometimes passed for phys ed/health at many colleges and universities, and I think Lincoln has gone about it all wrong, but I think a college education is about more than just getting a degree so you can go forth and work. College should be much more than an expensive training school.

[pbear19]

I took a 100-level health course in college because it was required of all students. I can't honestly say that I learned anything, but it wasn't a bad thing to have to take it.

Something else I just thought of: It's really short-sighted to single out the high-BMI students for this class for another reason. How many of the <30 BMI crowd know next to nothing about how to eat healthy because they are young and have never had to worry about it? What happens to them in 5 or 10 years when life suddenly catches up with them? Wouldn't it be a good idea to give them the skills and knowledge now so that they understand their unhealthy habits aren't going to fly in a few years? Or does the administration of the university just assume that those who are relatively thin now will always be like that? Heh. I can see how an 18 year old would think that. But I would have thought a college administrator would know better. Sometimes the people who have the worst health problems down the line are the ones who are thin and can eat any kind of junk they want when they are young, so they never learn the difference.

If the university really cared about its students, all students would be required to take the course.

@Sydney - Sounds like you are making the assumption that anyone with a 30+ BMI is inactive. There are a *lot* of overweight people who are quite active. Ever heard of the Athena and Clydesdale classes in running?

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by pbear19

@Sydney - Sounds like you are making the assumption that anyone with a 30+ BMI is inactive. There are a *lot* of overweight people who are quite active.

Nope. Not making that assumption at all. I'm sure there are people who have a high BMI who are active. But, if I were a betting person, I'd put money on 30+ BMI people, as a whole, being less active than below 30 BMI.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree.

Then what does it have to do with finishing middle school or getting a high school diploma?

I think saying there's no point in it unless it is your degree is a pretty narrow view of what a college education is supposed to be about.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

This latter part I agree with. I heard an interview with someone from Lincoln (it may have been DeBoy) a week or two ago, and he made a big deal about part of the impetus for this requirement being the problem of obescity among African-Americans, which can lead to other health problems (heart issues, diabetes, etc.). He was laying it out as an HBCU's responsibility to the African-American community, but if that's the reasoning behind it, then it seems everybody should have to take the class, because it's not just about your own health and making good choices for yourself -- it's also about the health of those around you and how you can support healthy choices by others.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by LionTamer

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Lincoln is a historically black university, and correlated the requirement to the crazy levels of diabetes and kidney disease among african-americans

Someone did.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I heard an interview with someone from Lincoln (it may have been DeBoy) a week or two ago, and he made a big deal about part of the impetus for this requirement being the problem of obescity among African-Americans, which can lead to other health problems (heart issues, diabetes, etc.). He was laying it out as an HBCU's responsibility to the African-American community, but if that's the reasoning behind it, then it seems everybody should have to take the class, because it's not just about your own health and making good choices for yourself -- it's also about the health of those around you and how you can support healthy choices by others.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Someone did.

lol

[LionTamer]

Ah, that's what happens when you don't read every page of a 14-page thread.

But my main message still stands - nutrition, health, sex-ed and swimming for all! Anything to give our students the knowledge they need to stay safe, healthy and afloat.