too broke to bury their dead

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

This is nothing special really. Folks all over the place don't have the cash to pay for their relatives' cremations. Detroit's not special in that regard.

The city pretty much collapsed under its own weight, putting all its eggs in one basket, lead by greedy unions, manufacturers who made crappy cars and corrupt politicians.

This'd be a losing formula anywhere and the city is getting what it deserves. Meanwhile, the South, which is largely anti-union is doing just fine. While UAW plants in Michigan keep closing, new ones are taking their place all over the South.

Michigan can either make the decision to get competitive or it continue to be left behind.

Is the south is doing just fine? Aren't half the condos in Miami sitting empty? How about Chicago, NY, and Boston which are largely UNION? How are those areas doing? Are there entire developements sitting empty like in Miami and Mexifornia?

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're old enough to know the difference between statistical fact and anecdotal fact.

Isn't it a statistical fact that the sales of Toyota and Nissan dropped just like the Big 3's sales dropped?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

You missed my point completely. My point was that everybody can't be bosses. There have to be some peons. In a capitalistic society, there must be different classes and looking down on the middle/lower class is closed minded and short sighted.

You do get to choose which you will be though. I know too many first generation Americans who came here without a dime to their name from places like Vietnam and Iran who worked 2-3 jobs until they could run their own businesses and are quite well off today. If those people can be bosses, so can anyone else. It just takes hard and smart work. If you refuse to do that kind of stuff, yes, you will get to be a peon, but it's your choice.

I agree with you about unions. I am as anti-union as they come. Nobody in my family has ever been in a union.

I'm not even anti-union. I think some unions do a hell of a job advocating for their members without tanking the industry. A good example of that would be the plumbers and pipe fitters union. They really do a great job and I know the companies (because I've seen their books) which have these folks working for them can still do very, very well.

The residents of Detroit get to vote in the Mayoral election. The millions of people who work in Detroit do not. We have no power over who gets elected in the city of Detroit and are outraged time and time again that these clowns get re-elected. We have no power. We simply pay our income tax to the city because we have to.

Blame your parents and their parents for this phenomenon. This is a direct result of racism, the subsequent reverse-racism and white flight. Again, this is an issue entirely of the making of the folks which, as you say, "work in Detroit."

In fact, they're building a new movie studio in a suburb of Detroit and hiring hundreds of people. Google came to Ann Arbor and opened an office. Many jobs have been created in the Life Sciences Corridor of Tech Town, an area being developed to be a mecca of medical/biological research.

To be fair, just about every major metropolitan area sports its own 'Mecca' of biomedical research. We even have such an animal in OKC. Unfortunately, it just won't do to have an economy which is based and depends entirely on private and public grants to stay afloat.

I can't imagine being in such a horrible place that I had to ask people for money to take care of the remains of my loved one.

As I said before, I don't think that's a phenomenon which only occurs in Detroit. There are plenty of places around where folks can't scrape together $600+ for a cremation (although that seems rather steep, I think it's only around $450 here).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Imus

Isn't it a statistical fact that the sales of Toyota and Nissan dropped just like the Big 3's sales dropped?

Everyone's sales dropped. Not everyone had to file for bankruptcy.

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Michigan can either make the decision to get competitive or it continue to be left behind.

How do you compete with $1/day labor?

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Everyone's sales dropped. Not everyone had to file for bankruptcy.

Everyone's sales dropped? Both non-union and union sales dropped? Why did the non-union sales drop? Didn't you say it was the unions fault?


PS. Why did a great non union company like Yugo go out of business?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Imus

How do you compete with $1/day labor?

Is that what they're paying in Indiana?

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm not even anti-union. I think some unions do a hell of a job advocating for their members without tanking the industry. A good example of that would be the plumbers and pipe fitters union. They really do a great job and I know the companies (because I've seen their books) which have these folks working for them can still do very, very well.


).

You really don't know anything about plumbers or pipe fitters.

The reason union plumbers, pipe fitters or any trade are able to survive is because it is pretty much impossible to outsource a job that has to be done locally to non union labor in China. If an owner needs plumbing done they can't send their building to China to have a Chinese plumber lay the pipe.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

For once can you leave politics and crap out of this? Do you have the ability to look at ANYTHING form just a plain humanistic point of view?

Sonia Sotomayor was right...

Are you kidding? Nothing I said was political in the slightest - I don't even know how you can construe that as a political post.

Indeed, I did address the "humanistic" part - I really do feel for the people of Detroit, as I noted when I said (paraphrase) that it sucks for the worker bees to pay for the shitty reasoning and greedy short-sightedness of the queen bees running Detroit. And it does suck - PM_Mama's post is a great example of the laws of unintended consequences, and how the disastrous moves of a few can affect the many.

But that doesn't change the fact that Detroit didn't just happen - this isn't the dinosaurs disappearing in a giant fireball with little or no evidence of why. We know why. It's plain as day - and it's not political, it's economic, it's intellectual, it's even humanistic. But pardon me for looking at this pragmatically: Detroit got fucked because the Big Auto manufacturers built a house of cards. Everyone living in Detroit is dealing with the fallout, which sucks, but it doesn't mean Kevin is explicitly wrong, even if you think he's being an asshole. Both can be true, in fact.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Imus

Everyone's sales dropped? Both non-union and union sales dropped? Why did the non-union sales drop? Didn't you say it was the unions fault?

PS. Why did a great non union company like Yugo go out of business?

So Imus, what are you driving at here? That the unions played no role in the collapse of two of the Big 3? That paying out insane wages and benefits for essentially unskilled labor is a good business strategy? What exactly?

A Honda plant was just opened up in Indiana just this year. How long has it been since Michigan opened a new auto plant? Early 90's maybe? Why do yo think that is?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Imus

You really don't know anything about plumbers or pipe fitters.

The reason union plumbers, pipe fitters or any trade are able to survive is because it is pretty much impossible to outsource a job that has to be done locally to non union labor in China. If an owner needs plumbing done they can't send their building to China to have a Chinese plumber lay the pipe.

Not all plumbers are union though. And in states like Oklahoma, union membership can't be a prerequisite for employment anywhere, so the unions in most cases offer value for both the employee and the employer.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So Imus, what are you driving at here? That the unions played no role in the collapse of two of the Big 3?

Imus/Madmax is intensely pro-union, so I think that's exactly the point he/she is driving at in his/her posts.

[southbymidwest]

It is not just Detroit that has suffered. Ask people from Akron/Canton OH, Gary IN, Pittsburgh PA, Toledo OH, Baltimore MD- those areas were once filled with manufacturers- some for the auto industry, some not, a lot union, some not. The domestic steel industry has been decimated in no small part due to manufacturing overseas where they can pay workers a pittance, and have minimal health, safety and ecologic consequences, and then ship here. The textile industry (which is almost exclusively southern) has been clobbered since the mid 1990's-they have lost over one million jobs, mainly to other countries. This is larger than the idiot mayor of Detroit, the bad decisions made by the bosses at the Big Three, and adversarial union/management relationships. The ripple efect of it all has negatively impacted the communities that have grown up around these manufacturing areas. So Kevin, would you have these people move because they did not see the future because obviously they had their eggs in one basket also?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by southbymidwest

It is not just Detroit that has suffered. Ask people from Akron/Canton OH, Gary IN, Pittsburgh PA, Toledo OH, Baltimore MD- those areas were once filled with manufacturers- some for the auto industry, some not, a lot union, some not. The domestic steel industry has been decimated in no small part due to manufacturing overseas where they can pay workers a pittance, and have minimal health, safety and ecologic consequences, and then ship here. The textile industry (which is almost exclusively southern) has been clobbered since the mid 1990's-they have lost over one million jobs, mainly to other countries. This is larger than the idiot mayor of Detroit, the bad decisions made by the bosses at the Big Three, and adversarial union/management relationships. The ripple efect of it all has negatively impacted the communities that have grown up around these manufacturing areas. So Kevin, would you have these people move because they did not see the future because obviously they had their eggs in one basket also?

Moving is an option. I'd suggest, if nothing else, that they break out of this 'woe is me' B.S. and do something to improve their own situation. Moving might be the best thing for some people as clearly there are more economic opportunities elsewhere, but that clearly isn't the best for everyone.

I imagine in the near future, in places like Detroit where the population is plummeted, the city or some governmental entity will start condemning entire blighted neighborhoods, giving owners the financial opportunity to relocate elsewhere in the city or to another metropolitan area. This is almost a certainty because current city services simply cannot service the population as spread out as it is and continued urban decay is a substantial certainty.

If there was one whit of leadership at the top, this'd already be going on.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by southbymidwest

It is not just Detroit that has suffered. Ask people from Akron/Canton OH, Gary IN, Pittsburgh PA, Toledo OH, Baltimore MD- those areas were once filled with manufacturers- some for the auto industry, some not, a lot union, some not. The domestic steel industry has been decimated in no small part due to manufacturing overseas where they can pay workers a pittance, and have minimal health, safety and ecologic consequences, and then ship here. The textile industry (which is almost exclusively southern) has been clobbered since the mid 1990's-they have lost over one million jobs, mainly to other countries. This is larger than the idiot mayor of Detroit, the bad decisions made by the bosses at the Big Three, and adversarial union/management relationships. The ripple efect of it all has negatively impacted the communities that have grown up around these manufacturing areas. So Kevin, would you have these people move because they did not see the future because obviously they had their eggs in one basket also?

Did I miss the memo? Is it False Dilemma Friday?

People only have control over their own situation - it's probably unlikely that a given individual can resurrect the American steel industry, for instance. If jobs suck in City X and there is simply nothing for them there, then the options are simple: stay there and deal with that situation, or move to a different situation. Obviously it's an imperfect solution, but what other options exist?

The solution to American manufacturers' comparative inefficiency probably isn't "stay in your city and hope things get better through an act of God or Government".