Saudi Rape victim is sentenced

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

So, are you saying, Seid, that you like the law that requires women to never be in the company of a non-relative male?

I'm sure there are sexual predators in Saudi Arabia (there are at least seven, anyway). The law clearly does nothing to prevent the presence of sexual predators.

Women anywhere who visit men they know only from online experiences need more safety-related education; they don't need laws forbidding them from going out to lunch with their male next-door neighbor.

I hope you're not really suggesting that women and men in America would benefit from a similar separation.

don't twist it...

sexual segregation works both ways.

I see it as this....you already know what you are supposed to do and what you are not supposed to do.

You have a choice.

You make the choice and then if you get caught, you have to live with the consequences...

Let's also not forget the rapist are being punished for the crime too.

If that is THEIR law and she knew the letter of the law then she knew she had not business being alone with him...likewise he should have sent her away knowing there was a risk for him being punished too!

[PeppyGPhiB]

Sorry to bring politics even more into it, but this is an example of why our invasion of Iraq, and our relations with the whole Middle East, has gone so poorly. These countries are ruled by Islamic Law, not civil law. We don't understand their culture because we don't LIVE our religions the way they do. In the Islamic world, where women are NOT equal to men and other religions are evil, our secular way of doing things is not acceptable. Don't try to apply our reasoning to their laws and culture - it's way beyond that. Just be glad that you don't live there.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Apparently this was not the case....


Monet...think about it...in the 21st century we now have lists of sexual predators, we have people who get locked up for getting a BJ which seemed totally innocent(reminder...Glenarlow and company were unchaperoned...) ...kids that are disappearing and later turning up raped if not dead...we have women going to visit so called internet buddies who get abused and raped and this is here in the 'civilized' US of A....so where is the civility here? Where is the enlightenment that people can get to co mingle and nothing will happen....remember less than a hundred years ago, there was an unspoken rule right here in this good ol' US of A that when a man went courting a woman, he sat there in full view of family (of course we know that this didn't always happen and if they were caught, there was dire consequences...but I digress) and in practice, the only time they were alone was after they married.

The fact is rape anywhere is about power, NOT about defiling one's sexual innocence, or morals.

The girl was 18 years old. Old enough to bear children, but not old enough to know the difference. The men who raped her were probably family friends that she grew up with who she never thought would violate her humanity like that.

Things in the US are bad because for any number of reasons. Media hype, more awareness, ignorance and inability to tell right from wrong, GEEZUS, whatever. The fact is, something was taking from a girl without consent to overpower her.

A cold strict code will NOT stop someone from abusing power by punishing the victim. It will only keep people ignorant rather than evolved. People can do better.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

These countries are ruled by Islamic Law, not civil law. We don't understand their culture because we don't LIVE our religions the way they do. In the Islamic world, where women are NOT equal to men and other religions are evil, our secular way of doing things is not acceptable. Don't try to apply our reasoning to their laws and culture - it's way beyond that. Just be glad that you don't live there.

Let me put it to you this way, even the Imam's know they are going to have to upgrade their belief systems because large masses of people are dying in these countries due to public health reasons.

Now they can be pissed off about it and suffer, but they are realizing folks are tired of them. Even the royalty is freaking out and the change the politicking as much as they can, however, we tire of it. Also, the Chinese government who are larger consumers now are not as forgiving as we were...

[CutiePie2000]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Don't try to apply our reasoning to their laws and culture - it's way beyond that. Just be glad that you don't live there.

Exactly.
If you guys want to read an excellent book, Read "Princess" by Jean Sasson. It will make you very thankful that you live in North America.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Exactly.
If you guys want to read an excellent book, Read "Princess" by Jean Sasson. It will make you very thankful that you live in North America.

Reading "Princess" and the sequels is one of the few ways I could come to grips with a sorority sister's "honor killing". Sarai's Story She wasn't a princess, but at least I better understood the culture which allowed this to happen.

[nittanyalum]

2-HUNDRED lashes!?!??!? That might KILL her, for crissakes.

[SigKapAngel767]

Co-sign, Nittany. Co-sign everyone that's grateful to be in the U.S.

There is a chance her corporal punishment could kill her....infection, damage to kidneys, loss of blood, etc. She may live if they have a doctor present to guide them away from vital organs as they are punishing her.

She is so young....I pray she lives to see better days.

[Kevin]

Respect their culture? Bullcrap.. when a culture has norms such as this, other civilizations are not required to respect them. We ought to condemn them.

This sort of punishment could only be carried out by barbaric animals.

That said, the world community will likely be mum. We can't threaten a country like Saudi Arabia with sanctions, but damn... this is a good example why the religious political wing in any country is something to be feared.

This is much like Darfur. Should we ignore the genocide going on there simply because the sovereign government there says it's okay since it's supposedly religiously justified? Hell no. None of this is okay.

To be clear, I don't see this as anything generally being wrong with Islam itself. I see this as there being a large number of practitioners of Islam who are extremists to the point that they, in my eyes have largely cast aside their humanity. That a culture of this era could condone such a thing is pretty shocking.

[squirrely girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Respect their culture? Bullcrap.. when a culture has norms such as this, other civilizations are not required to respect them. We ought to condemn them.

This sort of punishment could only be carried out by barbaric animals.

have to say i completely agree - there does come a point in time, when despite being respectful to cultural differences, some practices are just plain wrong. human rights violations are just unacceptable to me. as a global society we do have some responsibility to point out these violations, and if necessary, intervene. WWII, bosnia, rwanda, darfur, etc...

200 lashes will likely kill this young woman. 90 would have been bad enough and certainly caused significant bodily harm and disfigurement.

this is NOT an appropriate response of a legal system that is supposed to protect its citizens. even worse, when you think of this as a legal system who's laws possibly contribute to the actual crime. Should we have strict laws to prevent sexual predators or are they breeding more sexual predators by virtue of not allowing normal developmentally appropriate interactions between the sexes?

Its like sex education in this country. By taking an abstinence only educational perspective, you get a bunch of ignorant kids who teach each other or make stuff up. I’m not saying that disallowing interaction with opposite sex non-relatives makes rapists. But I am saying that it could lead to situations where woefully ignorant people make horrible decisions.

So again, why would you punish the victim? It DOES NOT make sense.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

have to say i completely agree - there does come a point in time, when despite being respectful to cultural differences, some practices are just plain wrong. human rights violations are just unacceptable to me. as a global society we do have some responsibility to point out these violations, and if necessary, intervene. WWII, bosnia, rwanda, darfur, etc...

200 lashes will likely kill this young woman. 90 would have been bad enough and certainly caused significant bodily harm and disfigurement.

this is NOT an appropriate response of a legal system that is supposed to protect its citizens. even worse, when you think of this as a legal system who's laws possibly contribute to the actual crime. Should we have strict laws to prevent sexual predators or are they breeding more sexual predators by virtue of not allowing normal developmentally appropriate interactions between the sexes?

Its like sex education in this country. By taking an abstinence only educational perspective, you get a bunch of ignorant kids who teach each other or make stuff up. I’m not saying that disallowing interaction with opposite sex non-relatives makes rapists. But I am saying that it could lead to situations where woefully ignorant people make horrible decisions.

So again, why would you punish the victim? It DOES NOT make sense.

I didn't say we should respect their customs. I just said that there's no point in trying to rationalize how/why they do things their way...because according to what we believe here in our country, their way makes no sense.

Saudi Arabia has been doing things this way for a long time...this is just one case. Where's the outrage for public beheadings for crimes that might not even earn prison time here? There are plenty of men that are executed for stupid reasons, too.

And...doesn't everyone get why Saudi Arabia thinks it's ok to punish this woman? Because they don't see her as a victim...she disobeyed one of their laws...she broke the law, and reaped what she sowed. THAT is how messed up that place is.

[squirrely girl]

oh i completely get what you're saying too. if anything, understanding the culture is the only way to truly implement change.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I didn't say we should respect their customs. I just said that there's no point in trying to rationalize how/why they do things their way...because according to what we believe here in our country, their way makes no sense.

Their way also makes no sense to many people in Saudi Arabia who feel free enough or have risked their lives to express their opinions of discontent.

As much as many things in the U.S. also don't make any sense, and as much as I critique inequalities here, there's no place I'd rather be.

[DSTCHAOS]

LOL.

There is so much gender inequality embedded in DaemonSeid's initial posts that we shouldn't have ended up here, anyway.

[Kevin]

There's no comparison. There's simply a judgment -- this sort of "justice" is sick, only uncivilized animals could think this sort of a sentence is just. The world community (not just the U.S.) should be up in arms and demanding change. At the very least, we should rethink our policy of tolerance when U.S. citizens or Muslim immigrants demand their own Sharia tribunals domestically or in in westernized nations such as the UK or Australia.

Yes, Saudi Arabia has been a backwards (yes, that's a comparison) place for quite some time now. There have been a lot of odd sentences, but this one, I think stands out. Most of the news reports I've read tell us that one aspect of Sharia is that the courts have very broad discretion as to the interpretation of the law when it comes to sentencing and that this case is, even for Saudi Arabia, an extreme one.

The bottom line is that tolerance and understanding should have limits. Human rights take precedence.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Kevin

we should rethink our policy of tolerance when U.S. citizens or Muslim immigrants demand their own Sharia tribunals domestically or in in westernized nations such as the UK or Australia.

The bottom line is that tolerance and understanding should have limits. Human rights take precedence.

I don't mean to offend but I believe the Sharia has no place in the western world, but the writing is on the wall over in Europe.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...474629,00.html