Hazing

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by BlueNYC2

wait...let me get this straight...dude was on line, dropped, snitched(b!tched), then became a member? yo, its one thing if you're a skater or paper...but at least you aint snitch/b!tch to get into the org. I dont care how one got in, whether its pledge/skate/paper, but to snitch and force your way in is not wats up in my book. THATS when i have no respect for you....

Originally Posted by Kevin

How else would we be able to stamp out the sort of behavior which could potentially threaten our organizations' existences? It takes a lot of courage to be a "snitch." Far more than it does to simply go along with whatever [illegal] program one's organization has put together. In most states, hazing is a crime. At a minimum, by "snitching," one is saving future generations from having to risk potential jail time/fines and blemished records.

I typically am not one to judge what other organizations are doing. NPHC least of all. But with all due respect, your attitude and the attitudes described by the individuals in the community described by PrettyBoy are pretty disturbing.

NPC organizations have by and large been successful eliminating hazing. NIC organizations have had success, but to a somewhat lesser extent. Are NPHC organizations having a more difficult time? Why?

I think i understand what BlueNYC is saying though....If you're going to snitch on someone, why would you still want to bully your way into the organization? If someone attempted to haze me, I'd snitch the crap out of them - but then I'd walk away. I wouldnt want to be in an organization that condones hazing. But from the sounds of it, this person snitched and then managed to be initiated anyway, even though nobody liked him. I would have been different if he snitched, and got respected and they still wanted him to Initiate. Of course - that's not the impression I got from the story. I got the impression that this person bullied their way into being initiated.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

He pledged the traditional way up to when the national ceremony took place. After the ceremony we weren't done pledging that line, they still had 8 weeks to go (underground). This guy was done after nationals came down to do the ceremony. He didn't even get the right meanings to the secrets of the fraternity, because we never told them until we decided to cross them. Nationals is nationals, we weren't on that program. We crossed 4 guys, it would have been 5 but he chose not to continue with the pledge process. The funny thing about it is nationals left it up to the undergrad brothers (us) to tell that line what everything on the shield and what Phi Nu Pi meant. Well, we told them, but it wasn't what it meant. We gave them all the wrong info because they still had to pledge 8 more weeks before they were accepted into the fraternity the right way. So I'm assuming he still doesn't know what Phi Nu Pi means, nor any secrets. Any Nupe he talks with might challenge him, and he will know nothing.

Let me get this straight. The chapter required 8 more weeks of "underground" pledging after these guys had already been initiated per the national ceremony? And after the national initation ceremony, the chapter lied to the newly initiated about fraternity symbols and secrets and withheld the correct information until these guys had completed the chapter's additional 8 weeks?

Wow.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Let me get this straight. The chapter required 8 more weeks of "underground" pledging after these guys had already been initiated per the national ceremony? And after the national initation ceremony, the chapter lied to the newly initiated about fraternity symbols and secrets and withheld the correct information until these guys had completed the chapter's additional 8 weeks?

Wow.

But it was tradition!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

I think i understand what BlueNYC is saying though....If you're going to snitch on someone, why would you still want to bully your way into the organization?

By informing your HQ, you're showing yourself to be a more loyal member than anyone directly violating their HQ's edicts are. As we always sway, our organizations are for life, not just for college. Why should you allow yourself to be robbed of this lifetime experience because some people were violating the rules and you called them on it?

That's hardly "bullying" your way in. That's showing that you have what it takes to make tough choices and then being accepted by an organization which should be grateful to have such a dedicated and loyal member -- someone who is willing to put what is right above what is convenient. The organization is lucky to have such a person.

If someone attempted to haze me, I'd snitch the crap out of them - but then I'd walk away. I wouldnt want to be in an organization that condones hazing

But that's the thing. No organization condones hazing. That chapters do it against their national policy is unfortunate. If the organization takes swift action and deals with those who were hazing, how could you possibly maintain that the organization supports or condones hazing?

But from the sounds of it, this person snitched and then managed to be initiated anyway, even though nobody liked him. I would have been different if he snitched, and got respected and they still wanted him to Initiate.

No one respects someone who turns them into the authorities for breaking the law. Who in that equation has the moral high ground though?

Of course - that's not the impression I got from the story. I got the impression that this person bullied their way into being initiated.

You say "bullied," I say "did the right thing."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

That's really despicable.

Agreed.

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by Kevin

By informing your HQ, you're showing yourself to be a more loyal member than anyone directly violating their HQ's edicts are. As we always sway, our organizations are for life, not just for college. Why should you allow yourself to be robbed of this lifetime experience because some people were violating the rules and you called them on it?

That's hardly "bullying" your way in. That's showing that you have what it takes to make tough choices and then being accepted by an organization which should be grateful to have such a dedicated and loyal member -- someone who is willing to put what is right above what is convenient. The organization is lucky to have such a person.



But that's the thing. No organization condones hazing. That chapters do it against their national policy is unfortunate. If the organization takes swift action and deals with those who were hazing, how could you possibly maintain that the organization supports or condones hazing?



No one respects someone who turns them into the authorities for breaking the law. Who in that equation has the moral high ground though?



You say "bullied," I say "did the right thing."

Yes, he did the right thing for snitching - but why on earth would he still want to join? That's the point of view I'm looking at it from. And why did these guys still initiate him if they werent going to respect him? Something about this story/situation doesnt make sense.....

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Yes, he did the right thing for snitching - but why on earth would he still want to join? That's the point of view I'm looking at it from. And why did these guys still initiate him if they werent going to respect him? Something about this story/situation doesnt make sense.....

In NPHC orgs, it is stressed that membership is much more than the chapter.

They might not have had a choice in the matter.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Yes, he did the right thing for snitching - but why on earth would he still want to join? That's the point of view I'm looking at it from. And why did these guys still initiate him if they werent going to respect him? Something about this story/situation doesnt make sense.....

What Senusret said is true for NIC organizations as well -- membership is bigger than just the chapter. It's for life, not for college. Doing the right thing isn't easy -- and it certainly shouldn't cost you your membership. I can't speak for another organization, but had this kid been a Sigma Nu, he would have in my eyes been more qualified for membership than anyone who stood by and did nothing while the chapter participated in illegal activity which could jeopardize the entire organization.

If I found out that my chapter (which I am a founder of ) was hazing, I'd personally see to it that they were shut down. My loyalty is to my national organization above all. I am a Sigma Nu first, a member of my chapter second.

I know others feel differently, but I think this kid did an incredibly courageous thing. Instead of the easy/popular route, he decided to do the right thing which resulted in him being a marked man wherever he went. I can only hope I'd have as much strength to do what is right if placed in a similar situation.

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What Senusret said is true for NIC organizations as well -- membership is bigger than just the chapter. It's for life, not for college. Doing the right thing isn't easy -- and it certainly shouldn't cost you your membership. I can't speak for another organization, but had this kid been a Sigma Nu, he would have in my eyes been more qualified for membership than anyone who stood by and did nothing while the chapter participated in illegal activity which could jeopardize the entire organization.

If I found out that my chapter (which I am a founder of ) was hazing, I'd personally see to it that they were shut down. My loyalty is to my national organization above all. I am a Sigma Nu first, a member of my chapter second.

I know others feel differently, but I think this kid did an incredibly courageous thing. Instead of the easy/popular route, he decided to do the right thing which resulted in him being a marked man wherever he went. I can only hope I'd have as much strength to do what is right if placed in a similar situation.

Ditto. That took some guts and he probably had days that he regretted doing it. I'm sure that if he feels what he did was right, he'll still make the most of his experience.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Let me get this straight. The chapter required 8 more weeks of "underground" pledging after these guys had already been initiated per the national ceremony? And after the national initation ceremony, the chapter lied to the newly initiated about fraternity symbols and secrets and withheld the correct information until these guys had completed the chapter's additional 8 weeks?

Wow.

You got it. My chapter is a part of the "Bloody Triangle". Greeks pledge the traditional way there. I'm not sure how things are done now but back then it wasn't only hard to get picked but once you were picked, it was that much harder to make it through the pledge process. When I went to the interest meeting for the 1st time there were so many interests, that they had to use two rooms. Only 8 of us got picked to pledge, two dropped out, and 6 of us made it. 16 weeks of pledging. One guy quit 2 weeks before we were initiated into the fraternity. We started pledging on Jan 7th. and were initiated Apr 8th @ 2:26 am.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But it was tradition!!

I wish it was still like that.

[Drolefille]

Yes well when lying to national headquarters comes back in style, do let me know.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yes well when lying to national headquarters comes back in style, do let me know.

Hey, a chapter's gotta do what a chapter's gotta do.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

That's really despicable.

I was being silly in the above quote, but yeah this really happened. I haven't been back to see pledges since I left school. I've only been back for homecoming, so I don't know if tradition is still being practiced or not. Our chapter is just really big on tradition. I remember sometimes watching some glos sneak their pledges above ground without getting caught by the campus police. It would cause a crowd. The year before I pledged it was legal to pledge above ground and I actually saw it happening. It was something I'm glad to have witnessed, because it was unbelievable seeing something like that up close.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

I wish it was still like that.

Again, wow.

So you taught pledges to respect the fraternity by disrespecting the fraternity yourselves? And that was a good thing?