Ethnic diversity: North vs. South

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Question: Are people in the south less likely to identify with their non-British Isles ancestry than people in other parts of the US? Or is it just immigration patterns?

I don't know about that. My Illinois-born grandfather's parents and older siblings came over on the boat from Germany - but my grandpa didn't have any spesific German customs or anything...I don't even think he knew more than 20 German words. Well, he probably did "back in the day", but his family assimilated quickly.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Question: Are people in the south less likely to identify with their non-British Isles ancestry than people in other parts of the US? Or is it just immigration patterns?

I'm not sure what you mean about it being "just immigration patterns." I know plenty of people in the South (and in my own family) that readily identify with (for example) German, French (especially Huguenot), Dutch, Italian and even Lebanese heritage. These backgrounds can be especially noticeable in matters of religion (wherever the Germans settled, for example, many old Lutheran churches will be found) and food.

But in so many instances, the families have been here for so long that they all converge in a generic European Southerness.

[VandalSquirrel]

I would think that the presence of HBCUs would affect statistical measurements at schools in the south. Out west (not on the coast) our system is sometimes as diverse as the local population, but many schools have thriving Latino Greek orgs. or MCGLOs.

As for names, my last name is Frisian technically, but was considered German when disembarking the boat (due to where the boat came from), and it is actually Dutch. I think we all know about the issues at Ellis island with the word Deutsch and Dutch. But that is all somewhat pointless, since it says WASP in the box that says "race or color" on my birth certificate (not making that up).

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm not sure what you mean about it being "just immigration patterns." I know plenty of people in the South (and in my own family) that readily identify with (for example) German, French (especially Huguenot), Dutch, Italian and even Lebanese heritage. These backgrounds can be especially noticeable in matters of religion (wherever the Germans settled, for example, many old Lutheran churches will be found) and food.

But in so many instances, the families have been here for so long that they all converge in a generic European Southerness.

Immigration patterns=countries people tend to come from/have ancestry from. For example, lots of people from Chicago are of Polish descent. Lots of Irish in Boston. etc...

I also don't think one necessarily becomes more "generic" the longer one is in a country. Sure, people integrate/assimilate to a degree, but later-wave immigrants seem to have a closer connection with the old country, even generations after they've settled. For example, Italian-Americans will probably continue to identify as Italian-American for generations to come.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Immigration patterns=countries people tend to come from/have ancestry from. For example, lots of people from Chicago are of Polish descent. Lots of Irish in Boston. etc...

I guess I wasn't clear enough -- I know what immigration patterns are; I wasn't sure what you meant by your question.

I also don't think one necessarily becomes more "generic" the longer one is in a country. Sure, people integrate/assimilate to a degree, but later-wave immigrants seem to have a closer connection with the old country, even generations after they've settled. For example, Italian-Americans will probably continue to identify as Italian-American for generations to come.

Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to remember that, in regard to immigration patterns, later-wave immigrants have generally not come to the South in large groups, except for those from Latin America. Just to name a few examples, there have never, as far as I can remember, been large-scale immigragations of Poles, Italians, or Irish (not Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish) to the South. (There are exceptions, like Greeks in Tarpon Springs and elsewhere.)

The large waves of German, French or other groups to the South were, for the most part, centuries ago, hence the loss of the ___-American identity and the prevalence of a more generic Southern identity.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by minDyG

Well I wouldn't necessarily say less-than-diverse Greek systems, just that the various conferences/councils/what-have-you within the systems tend to be relatively homogenous. For example, there are mostly white women and white men in the NPC and IFC sororities and fraternities at most SEC schools; however, there are plenty of ethnic sororities and fraternities as well including the NPHC organizations and other organizations that fall into the multicultural category (I can't remember the name of their association). I think that is a recurring problem throughout the South; while our population may be just as ethnically diverse as anywhere else in the States, we tend to self-segregate more than other areas due to centuries-old traditions that we never even consciously recognize.

Yep. And there's something a little sad about it, but it doesn't make it any less real or any less comfortable particularly for the members of minority groups who, after going almost all day as the sole member of their group, want to feel at home at least part of the day.

[UGAalum94]

You all talking about historic immigration patterns are kind of completely ignoring the entire Gulf Coast and Florida. While Florida might be culturally debatable, coastal Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are both southern and not-as-WASPy.

(But apparently not sending that many girls to Auburn.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

You all talking about historic immigration patterns are kind of completely ignoring the entire Gulf Coast and Florida. While Florida might be culturally debatable, coastal Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are both southern and not-as-WASPy.

With regard to the Gulf Coast, that falls, I think (though I stand to be corrected), under the distinction I was making between recent, or later-wave, immigration patterns and those that occured, say, over a century ago. And I excepted immigration of Latin Americans from my general statement.

As for Florida, I think it is indeed arguable that many of the immigration patterns in the last century have made Florida less traditionally Southern.

[AOII Angel]

As someone raised in the deep south, not many people identify with anything other than being southern. I have German, Swedish, Italian and a small bit of English blood, but I and my family don't specifically identify with any of them. White ethnic groups in Louisiana are more locally defined...as in cajun or creole if they even apply. We have a lot of French names in LA which is a little different from the rest of the south, but Polish and Czech names are practically unheardof here.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

With regard to the Gulf Coast, that falls, I think (though I stand to be corrected), under the distinction I was making between recent, or later-wave, immigration patterns and those that occured, say, over a century ago. And I excepted immigration of Latin Americans from my general statement.

As for Florida, I think it is indeed arguable that many of the immigration patterns in the last century have made Florida less traditionally Southern.

I think the culture of the Gulf Coast remains other than "wasp-y" and I thought you were sort of saying that the earlier the immigrants settled the more likely they were to have given up the non- white, anglo-saxon protestant parts of their identity, and I think we agree that the earliest immigrants on the Gulf were not WASPs.

The coast is kind of its own thing. It's Southern and historically more Catholic and culturally/historically as influenced by French and Spanish influences as it would have been by Anglo-Irish-Scots. (Nobody is giving up Thibadeaux is favor of Thomas, or whatever.)

But other than LSU, the coast culture probably isn't that well represented in SEC Greek Life overall. It's too diluted by the WASPiness.

[alum]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

While FL still has many of the standard WASP names (people even jokingly say my full name with a British accent), the diversity comes from the Jewish population in the state schools.
There's probably a fairly large percentage of -steins that join IFC or NPC groups.

Now I want to see the NM Lists of the flagship Florida schools to see if that is accurate.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

I don't know about that. My Illinois-born grandfather's parents and older siblings came over on the boat from Germany - but my grandpa didn't have any spesific German customs or anything...I don't even think he knew more than 20 German words. Well, he probably did "back in the day", but his family assimilated quickly.

Was this around WWI? Lots of people of German descent hid their German-ness at that time. Here in Canada, the of Berlin, Ontario even changed its name to Kitchener.

[Sistermadly]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Question: Are people in the south less likely to identify with their non-British Isles ancestry than people in other parts of the US? Or is it just immigration patterns?

Well, there were Scotch-Irish slaveowners who owned my ancestors and gave me my last name, but it's not like I celebrate Robbie Burns and St. Patrick's Day.

(My father's side of the family can trace its roots back to early 1800s Georgia. Even though we're not white, I'd say that makes us pretty darned Southern.)

[Drolefille]

My dad's mom's family kept the German name during both World Wars but they're all farmers in Kansas so I doubt they had neighbors to harass them about it.

Just a thought about ethnicity, some of it could be masked due to marriage. My last name is English although my mom is 100% Italian in her heritage. Her family's names are all very clearly Italian, but since she's female, the last name is lost despite the fact that we're very Italian (although less so than my grandmother).

I do know that my grandmother (a DZ) dealt with some discrimination with regards to sororities, her sister never joined one because she felt discriminated against and I would bet my nonna's rush was different as a daughter of immigrants than as someone who's been here since the Revolution.

/my thoughts, they ramble.

[SoCalGirl]

I agree with the thought that the longer your family has been in the states the more likely that you're not ethnic any more. But I do want to remind people that when your family has been in the states for a long time your last name is a less dependable indicator of ethnicity.

For example, my last name is English. Most of my ethnic heritage is actually German. Even then there's some fuzzyness if my great great grandfather truly was Bavarian or French. He was the last immigrant that we're aware of and he was still here in time to enlist in the Civil War! Most of his daughters moved to the South. One even ran off and married a Cuban before divorcing and settling in Atlanta! The point is, names mean nothing these days.

eta: Drole kind of beat to my point.