Gerry Studds Dies

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Some of us are proud to be American. I'm not condoning ignorance, but I'm fairly well traveled and well educated, and I don't apologize for not sitting back and allowing a Canadian citizen to ridicule the government of the United States. I'm generally a little hostile towards citizens of other countries which deride the U.S., yet depend upon America.

Funny because I've heard Americans criticize other countries so many times. As a citizen whose country is affected by the USA's decisions, I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize this administration. God knows everyone else is, and rightfully so.

[shinerbock]

Which is fine, nobody said he couldnt say what he wanted. I'm simply responding. Or is it politically incorrect to respond to politically correct jabs at the administration?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Bigot, right. I'm sorry, I suppose congressmen having sex with 17 year old pages is cool up there. Don't worry, I won't be living in Canada anytime soon, considering I like countries with things like beaches, jobs, world influence, courage, decent beer, etc...

Awh... look it's so cute - he's gone on to derided gays and "leftists"; being an apologist for Timothy Mcveigh; and of course engaging in little Islamaphobia - too straight out insulting another country while bemoaning anti-Americanism

Anyways you'll note that my 'bigot' comment was directed at the comment wishing Studd's partner and most other "leftists" would leave the country... not as you try to imply about Stubbs himself.

But in the spirit of trying bring the light to those living in the dark of ignorance:
Beaches - Southern Ontario lines up with Northern California latitude-wise... also Canada has more fresh water beaches than the US (or any other country thanks to have more freshwater lakes and coastline than anyone else)
Jobs - our unemployment rate is lower, and our average per capitia income is higher....so... hmm
World Influence - Canada's influence doesn't rely on military force, but rather moral and ethical force... sorry I prefer the later.
Courage - Here, I'll help you out: check out the dates of entry into the World Wars... or the fact that Canada fought in more wars than the US during the 19th century, an equal amount in the 20th century, and of course as many legal wars as the US in the 21st century (Canada chose not to believe the faulty intelligence for Iraq).
Decent Beer - hahahahahahahahahahaha.... <breathe> hahahahahahahaha.... your funny

I'm sorry, but for someone who claims to be well travelled and well educated you seem woefully ignorant and intolerant of the world outside of the US, or for that matter outside of your personal world-view.

[RU OX Alum]

so, does that mean at least one new person will be in washington? I'm voting against all incumbant and all incumbant parties.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Which is fine, nobody said he couldnt say what he wanted. I'm simply responding. Or is it politically incorrect to respond to politically correct jabs at the administration?

I can't believe you're actually trying to defend this administration. They've officially gone too far with the death of Habeas Corpus.

[shinerbock]

Centaur, uhhh, the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus...This isn't the first time this has happened.

As for ole RACooper. I do make fun of liberals, whats your point? I've yet to insult gays, other than to say a tryst with a teenage page is disgusting, which it is. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding McVeigh, but that doesn't surprise me considering the ridiculous statements you've made to this point.

As for what Canada has to offer...

Beaches- You're kidding. Coastline =/= beaches. American beaches are far superior to Canadian beaches, I hardly think this is a debate. Granted, I've only been to Prince Edward Island, which was quite nice, but not comparable to the wealth of beaches in the U.S.

Unemployment- really, lower? Last time I checked 6.4% (Canada in Sept.) is a higher number than 4.6% (U.S. in Sept.)...

Per Capita Income- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income
GDP-PC, PPP, take your pick, US is higher

World Influence- Not to be mean, but Canada isn't influential, militarily or otherwise...

Wars- Yes, I'm sure Canada knew all along that the intelligence was bad, despite many, many intelligence agencies confirming the same thing. I know Canadians think appeasing terrorists will keep them off their doorstep, we shall see, however...

Decent Beer- Once again, you're joking correct?

People like yourself often call others ignorant, simply for having likes/dislikes. I don't like terrorists, how does that make me ignorant? I don't like people who deride America, how does that make me ignorant? Try standing for something, you may find you like it. On a side note, I've changed my mind about the Canadian military, I imagine some are quite courageous. My statement is directed towards the general population. I do like Harper, however.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Centaur, uhhh, the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus...This isn't the first time this has happened.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'd just like to know where in the constitution it states this and when it has happened before.
As for terrorists? Look, no one likes them except other terrorists. But we're in Iraq for no reason, we still haven't caught Osama (who had nothing to do with Iraq), the extra security measures at airports still suck (I almost got onboard a plane with a 4 inch blade, I'll tell that one another day), let's not get into Guantanamo Bay.
Now we have a madman threatening to blow up the world and the lack of diplomacy on the part of the US is staggering.
You can't sneeze the wrong way without getting profiled as a terror suspect now.
It's not derision, it's the truth. Being a patriot for your country means speaking out when you know something's wrong with the way its conducting business. You're allowed to be conservative and realize that this administration is fucking up bigtime.
I have no issue with people bitching about the UK. Why? Because I don't agree with everything and I think a lot of their policies and stances aren't correct.

EDIT: Did some research on habeas corpus. The last time it was suspended was during the Civil War. I still can't find the allowance for its suspension in the constitution though.

[tunatartare]

CCCP rules

[shinerbock]

haha

Habeas Corpus isn't supposed to be suspended except during times of rebellion or invasion when the public safety requires it.(Art. I) Lincoln suspended it during the Civil War, and it was also suspended during reconstruction, under Grant I presume (not sure). My personal belief is that enemy combatants shouldn't have the privilege...I do however agree with the Hamdi(sp) case, in that U.S. citizens should have the privilege regardless of the label of enemy combatant.

My biggest problem here isn't that people think the Military Commissions Act is a bad idea, but that the large majority of people complaining about it can't even define HC. I think its something that should be debated, and people who are against it need to come up with ideas about how to solve the problem we have with these enemy combatants (its a huge and complex situation). I just get tired of people regurgitating points made by Keith Olbermann about rights they didn't even know existed until recent episodes of "Countdown."

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Centaur, uhhh, the Constitution allows for the suspension of habeas corpus...This isn't the first time this has happened.

As for ole RACooper. I do make fun of liberals, whats your point? I've yet to insult gays, other than to say a tryst with a teenage page is disgusting, which it is. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding McVeigh, but that doesn't surprise me considering the ridiculous statements you've made to this point.

From your post in Christian Terrorists Hijack a Plane:
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ma#post1334139
“ The Oklahoma City Bombing had nothing to do with the people they were attacking. I believe they've even claimed that they had no real intention of harming the victims. The crime was intended to be against the government. How is that comparable to attacks which target civilians solely because of their faith or belief? Its not.

Sorry but that looks like your trying to gloss over this gross act of domestic terrorism; and what’s more disturbing is that it looks like you aren’t familiar with the motivations and beliefs of the bomber.
Here’s some helpful, and basic, links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

As for what Canada has to offer...

Beaches- You're kidding. Coastline =/= beaches. American beaches are far superior to Canadian beaches, I hardly think this is a debate. Granted, I've only been to Prince Edward Island, which was quite nice, but not comparable to the wealth of beaches in the U.S.

Depends on what your looking for in a beach – if your looking for swimming or if your sunning; personally I love swimming/skiing/windsurfing, and I much prefer doing that on/in fresh water… anyways here’s a link to two beaches “near” me, which I vacation at (when I feel like the beach and not the lake):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasaga_Beach%2C_Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauble_Beach%2C_Ontario

Oh interesting factoid – Toronto has a nude beach (Hanlan’s Point) out on the Toronto Islands…Oidhche Bhealtaine and Lugnasadh were a blast this year (only place where you can do the festivals naked in Toronto)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlan%27s_Point

Unemployment- really, lower? Last time I checked 6.4% (Canada in Sept.) is a higher number than 4.6% (U.S. in Sept.)...

Per Capita Income- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income
GDP-PC, PPP, take your pick, US is higher

Got me here… was going by the PC pamphlet comparing per captia income and services; as well as unemployment figures – I guess they’re massaging the facts in preparation for the upcoming election (municipal, and with a minority government federally, one is always “upcoming”).

I was also going by the unemployment figures as printed in said pamphlet; but looking at them and visiting the StatsCan website I see that they used the Labour Force Survey numbers as they looked better… the unemployment rate figures and graph will prove a problem for Harper, since the numbers/percentage has been climbing starting three months after he took office (which is kinda weird since they should have had a downward trend during the spring and summer).

Anyways – live and learn: don’t rely on party documents for facts (particularly from this Hats & Horses crowd which back Harper)

World Influence- Not to be mean, but Canada isn't influential, militarily or otherwise...

I’m sorry that you see “hard-power” or realpolitik as the only measure of a nation’s influence – I happen to be very happy with the concept of “soft-power”, the rule of law, and multilateralism… so will have to disagree.

Wars- Yes, I'm sure Canada knew all along that the intelligence was bad, despite many, many intelligence agencies confirming the same thing. I know Canadians think appeasing terrorists will keep them off their doorstep, we shall see, however...

While yes, Canada did accept the intelligence about the WMD – Canadian intelligence (CSIS) didn’t deem the intelligence from defectors, that painted Iraq and Saddam as an imminent threat, as credible... mainly because the defectors stories didn't stand up to investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Iraq_War

Decent Beer- Once again, you're joking correct?

No, I am not kidding in the least – I make it a habit to try the local brews wherever I visit (on that note avoid Italian beers like the plague) and sure there are some good beers from Sam Adams, and I do like Yuengling, but for the most part the vast majority of American beers are… how did Monty Python out it? “Like making love in a canoe: F—king close to water”.

People like yourself often call others ignorant, simply for having likes/dislikes. I don't like terrorists, how does that make me ignorant? I don't like people who deride America, how does that make me ignorant? Try standing for something, you may find you like it. On a side note, I've changed my mind about the Canadian military, I imagine some are quite courageous. My statement is directed towards the general population. I do like Harper, however.

Right: I’d like to know why you think the only some of the CAF are courageous, and why the general population of Canada isn’t? Seems pretty hypocritical to state you hate people who deride your country and then turn around and do the same thing by implying that Canadians and most of it’s military are cowards…

As for Harper - I don't see him lasting much longer than another year, given the rumblings within the party about his leadership. Unfortunately it's going to take some time for the party to recover from the Hats & Horses/Bible Thumpers regime. My only hope is that the Liberals make such a botch of the leadership that the Tories have time to regroup.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by centaur532

I have no issue with people bitching about the UK. Why? Because I don't agree with everything and I think a lot of their policies and stances aren't correct.

It's pretty much a national tradition over here to gripe about your government... afterall you can only complain about the weather so much.

Personally I have no problems with people picking apart some of Canada's a--hat policies (foreign or domestic) - just be prepared to debate it, because thats what people do in the pub when were not watching sports

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Meh... exceedly unprofessional with regards to the relationship with page... but disgusting - no. Afterall it was a consentual relationship with both being of the age of consent, and the page public acknowledged this fact.

Most of those calling him and his career disgusting fall into two camps: "loyal republicans" who would decry any fault or failing in a Democrat; and those who think "fags are evil abomonations"... neither really carrys any weight, accept amongst the above two groups.

This is being over-simplistic...but you seem to gladly take any shot at Republicans, so the comment doesn't surprise me. Some people think it's disgusting because of the age difference, because of the position diffferences (Congressman and page), or other reasons. It doesn't divide quite so easily into Republican and Anti-Homosexual groups.

Also, your take on Canadian vs U.S. beers is amusing, but that's a story for a whole other day.

[shinerbock]

RA, you need to look at microbrews from out west, as well as several in the southeast.

About OK City, thats not condoning action at all. The point is that testimony and the circumstances reveal that the target was not civilians. Was it reckless, and do I think they should pay for what they've done? Absolutely. My point is that they're not very similar to islamic terrorists, who target civilians. Now, if what McVeigh said was a lie, and they wanted to kill as many people as possible, so be it, but that bomb would do a lot more damage at somewhere other than the federal building.

As for Canadian military, I didn't imply at all that most were cowardly. I'm actually implying that most are probably courageous. I have no idea obviously, because I have little connection. Its simply my assumption that there are some in the military who aren't courageous, which is probably true in the U.S., but I believe the overwhelming majority are. As for the Canadian general public, i'm painting with a broad brush here, but this is based on general Canadian sentiment towards the administration and the U.S. in general. I'm sure many Canadian's are great friends to America, but it seems many are not.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

RA, you need to look at microbrews from out west, as well as several in the southeast.

I'll have to next time I'm in the area... or the next time the LCBO does a spotlight on the region

As for the Canadian general public, i'm painting with a broad brush here, but this is based on general Canadian sentiment towards the administration and the U.S. in general. I'm sure many Canadian's are great friends to America, but it seems many are not.

A difference in opinions and values doesn't mean that the population isn't courageous.... afterall even the Bush administration would agree that "courage is doing the right thing even when others tell you it's wrong" - it's just that Canadians differ on what the "right thing" is/was.

For example for the most part (and in particular Quebec, those randy bastards ) have different views regarding sexuality than our American cousins - the fact that Studd's sexual relationship was consentual, and that both parties maintained this long after the fact, really diminishes the "moral outrage" factor... sure it was highly unprofessional, but for the most part Canadians (well many) echo former Primeminister Trudeau's belief that what happens in the bedroom is private (then again Trudeau's wife had an affair with Mick Jagger).

Anyways here's an old thread you might find amusing:
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...nadian+Apology

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by RACooper

It's pretty much a national tradition over here to gripe about your government... afterall you can only complain about the weather so much.

Personally I have no problems with people picking apart some of Canada's a--hat policies (foreign or domestic) - just be prepared to debate it, because thats what people do in the pub when were not watching sports

It's become somewhat of a pasttime in the USA too. Everytime Bush opens his mouth you can hear the headpalm.
Fun fact: When Bush is gonna spout dumb rhetoric about how great his plans are, he wears a red tie. When he is gonna tell the nation something they may not like or agree with, he wears a blue tie.