Tyrone Willingham fired

[Kevin]

Originally posted by TriDeltaGal
I was talking to my educational psychology professor (USC alum) about this today. He thinks that Karl Dorrell (UCLA coach) is the next to go.

This made me a little disappointed in UCLA... it seems colleges don't really give chances to coaches anymore. I mean Dorrell has only been at UCLA for two years, geez, he's still working with Toledo's recruited players.

Because Stoops and Tressell won NC's at their respective schools in 2 years, now many other schools are expecting the same.

When they're paying state employees 7-figure salaries, I guess they have the right to expect whatever they want.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by KSigkid
With Butch Davis now free of his obligations to the Browns, I could see him ending up at Florida. He's had success in the state before (at U. of Miami) and is a good college coach.

I really can't understand the fascination with Urban Meyer, if this was indeed the reason for the firing. Yes he's had success at Utah and Bowling Green, and yes he was a Notre Dame assistant. However, Willingham was having solid success on the field and off it with his recruiting; I just don't see how Meyer could be that much of an improvement.

As I understand it, the feeling at ND was that Willingham did not get the whole "ND" thing. USC had this problem with every coach between Larry Smith and Pete Carroll as well. Its about a certain kind of traidition within programs like USC and Notre Dame and if the coach does not buy into the whole hoopla, it can make for a rough time while there.

Now Urban Meyer on the other hand, is considered to be a ND kind of guy. And I heard he has a clause in his contract with Utah that allows him out if Notre Dame comes calling.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by TriDeltaGal
I was talking to my educational psychology professor (USC alum) about this today. He thinks that Karl Dorrell (UCLA coach) is the next to go.

This made me a little disappointed in UCLA... it seems colleges don't really give chances to coaches anymore. I mean Dorrell has only been at UCLA for two years, geez, he's still working with Toledo's recruited players.

Pete Carroll won Nat'l Champ at USC in his 3rd year. UCLA has been getting clobbered by us for years now--they will never stand for that. Look at USC's program in the 90s when we were down. It was often losses to UCLA and Notre Dame that prompted the revolving door of coaches we had for awhile there.

I think a coach needs more than 3 years, he needs time for the players HE recruited to mature. But huge programs like UCLA, USC, Notre Dame, Florida, etc will not stand for a long tradition of losing.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by amycat412
Pete Carroll won Nat'l Champ at USC in his 3rd year. UCLA has been getting clobbered by us for years now--they will never stand for that. Look at USC's program in the 90s when we were down. It was often losses to UCLA and Notre Dame that prompted the revolving door of coaches we had for awhile there.

I think a coach needs more than 3 years, he needs time for the players HE recruited to mature. But huge programs like UCLA, USC, Notre Dame, Florida, etc will not stand for a long tradition of losing.

Carroll also walked in with a shit ton of talent, and the immortal Norm Chow (how the f- he's not on top of everyone's list is the silliest thing ever).

Willingham walked in with a bunch of low-grade 'tweeners', and a nation of high school athletes who simply don't buy the notre dame mystique.

Notre Dame used to recruit itself, but those days are long past. Not giving Ty Willingham the time to let his guys move through the system is a grave error. Now, Urban Meyer has walked into situations and performed, but so did Willingham - and he might be a "ND guy" but the nation doesn't give the same benefit of the doubt to ND anymore like in the 70s or 80s, or even the early 90s . . . specifically, recruits. ND, USC, etc may have a storied tradition, but the recruiting figures make it clear: you get recruits when you have performed lately (see: UF - which was simply terrible until Spurrier came, and really had no history to speak of), and have created a solid environment for these recruits to come into. USC and OU typify these right now, and I'll posit this is why they've returned to glory - not because of a reliance on the past.

The coach is the single most important part of a college football team - not the mystique. Why is Ty Willingham suddenly not a great college football coach? What is different from his time at Stanford?

It's just that - Time.

ND is in for a rude awakening, I think - even beyond any racial implications.

I completely think it's a terrible move.

[amycat412]

Willingham is being treated unfairly. I've heard sports pundits talk about his record at Stanford as being not great and evidence of him being a sub par coach. this is utter b.s. At Stanford, their academic reputation prevetns them from having stellar recruiting like a Florida or a USC.

He should have been given more time.

That said, I was one of the USC fans clamoring for Robinson's/Hackett's heads when we suffered a few losing seasons in a row. And why? Becuase they just did not "get" the whole USC thing. And htat is what I keep hearing people say about Willingham and the ND 'thing"

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by amycat412
That said, I was one of the USC fans clamoring for Robinson's/Hackett's heads when we suffered a few losing seasons in a row. And why? Becuase they just did not "get" the whole USC thing. And htat is what I keep hearing people say about Willingham and the ND 'thing"

What's the "ND Thing" right now? Mediocrity? Overrated and inflated reputation in the media, that doesn't carry over to the general population? Recruits turning them down for UF, for NC State, for Minnesota (as has happened recently)? A history of "winning" that traces back 70 years, but not 15 years?

For my money, it's the inverse of Florida - UF sucked terribly until Spurrier took over, just decades of losing and third-tier statues. Now it's a tier-one job - why? b/c it's increasingly a "what have you done for me lately?" lifestyle. And Carroll might or might not "get" USC - but would you fire him if he didn't? Of course not, b/c he WINS.

I think you can conflate "gets it" with "is winning" and not lose a beat. Think about it.

In this case, apparently most of the nation doesn't "get it" with Notre Dame, b/c their ratings on NBC are falling, their recruiting classes were weak (up until, uh, Willingham's last two, including the incoming), and a couple (minor) scandals that were way outside of ND's perception of itself.

I think the "gets it" argument is sort of a cop-out, especially for ND. On the other hand, Amy, you should have pushed for the two previous USC coaches to be shot out of a cannon, b/c they were political hires and subpar choices (who haven't exactly resurfaced in college football, IIRC) . . . not just b/c they didn't revere OJ and Marcus Allen.

I am not sure if my dad told me this or i heard this that wellingham might goto washington....any turth????

[amycat412]

Originally posted by KSig RC
What's the "ND Thing" right now? Mediocrity? Overrated and inflated reputation in the media, that doesn't carry over to the general population? Recruits turning them down for UF, for NC State, for Minnesota (as has happened recently)? A history of "winning" that traces back 70 years, but not 15 years?

For my money, it's the inverse of Florida - UF sucked terribly until Spurrier took over, just decades of losing and third-tier statues. Now it's a tier-one job - why? b/c it's increasingly a "what have you done for me lately?" lifestyle. And Carroll might or might not "get" USC - but would you fire him if he didn't? Of course not, b/c he WINS.

I think you can conflate "gets it" with "is winning" and not lose a beat. Think about it.

In this case, apparently most of the nation doesn't "get it" with Notre Dame, b/c their ratings on NBC are falling, their recruiting classes were weak (up until, uh, Willingham's last two, including the incoming), and a couple (minor) scandals that were way outside of ND's perception of itself.

I think the "gets it" argument is sort of a cop-out, especially for ND. On the other hand, Amy, you should have pushed for the two previous USC coaches to be shot out of a cannon, b/c they were political hires and subpar choices (who haven't exactly resurfaced in college football, IIRC) . . . not just b/c they didn't revere OJ and Marcus Allen.

No, you're not "getting" it. lol The "thing" is not about football at all. Its about the spirit of the school and its programs. Some schools have a very unique and definitive spirit. USC, Auburn, Notre Dame-- schools that define themselves as part of a FAMILY.

Ex USC Coaches did not "get" the USC pride. As Willingham has been said not to "get" the spirit at Notre Dame.

John Robinson "got" the USC thing--he was a beloved coach--IN THE PAST. When he came back to SC he tried to play the same style of ball from his first era and the Pac-10 had changed. Hello, West Coast offense.

Hackett never got it and fought with AD Garrett and the administration---much as Willingham is reported to have done at ND.

And when that "spirit" is as revered as it is at schools like USC and ND, not understanding it, not playing to it, can be a death knell for you. Not the SOLE reason for a dismissal, of course, but a big factor in it. When a coach plays to that spirit--he will get what he wants out of the boosters, AD and admin... which DOES help him to have a successful team.

As I wrote this, I understood more of what you meant by cop-out... but I have read that this was a factor so many times now, and knowing how it can be a factor at USC, that I do believe it is part of the story with Willingham.

[sigtau305]

Originally posted by KSigkid
With Butch Davis now free of his obligations to the Browns, I could see him ending up at Florida. He's had success in the state before (at U. of Miami) and is a good college coach.

and His Style fits perfectly at Florida.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by amycat412

As I wrote this, I understood more of what you meant by cop-out... but I have read that this was a factor so many times now, and knowing how it can be a factor at USC, that I do believe it is part of the story with Willingham.

I do get this part of the argument as you laid it out . . . but I think that, honestly, winning supercedes it. You wouldn't keep a coach that lost b/c he created a wonderful environment for the athletes and boosters - now, it very well could be a factor in a decision not to allow more time, sure, but in Willingham's case it reeks of copping out. How, exactly, did he 'not get it'? He didn't tap the sign on the way out of the locker room? He stopped the painting of the helmets?

In this specific case, I think it's a joke.


I obviously have little first-hand knowledge of USC (just one bowl game, and the turnout was uncharacteristically low for them, apparently), so please don't feel like I'm commenting on them in specific.

However, if we're going to walk this path . . . what schools have the 'getting it' proviso? You named Auburn - that's a can of worms, b/c schools like Bama just destroy Auburn in football legacy. In terms of performance, Nebraska is ahead of them too. Where do we draw the line?

I feel like every college has its history and culture, and there's a 'fan texture' to every team - maybe we're just agreeing, in a backwards way, that some schools have a more severe 'slope' for those that don't mesh with this texture? If so, doesn't this make it the ultimate cop-out: ADs caving to fan bitching?

Also I'm a little drunk, so this might not make sense for shit, sorry duder. Also, I seriously hate notre dame

[amycat412]

lol KSig RC. I think some schools have a more Fanatical Spirit than others. And they are usually schools with a HUGE football program--USC, Bama, Auburn, ND, et al. The FL schools traditions are relatively new. Wheras schools like Texas, etc have lonnnnng traditions of Heisman winners and Nat'l Championships.

And I felt shivers down my back the first time I stepped onto USC's campus. ALL my USC friends felt that too. Its a family. And most of my friends who went to other schools--SMU, U San Diego, USF etc... Don't understand my extreme amounts of pride in my alma mater. But Notre Dame, UVA, alums-Do.

That's what I was getting at in my last post--that whole you BELONG to a family feeling that some schools have in abundance.

And I think, at these schools, the coach GETS this and that is part of why he wins. Its like a relationship---you either mesh or you don't.

I am a little drunk too. Damn this is getting to be a habit, but my FAV wine of the moment is on a serious SALE now, so I bought a bunch of it.

[BobbyTheDon]

Amycat, where have you been my whole internet life?

GO TROJANS. if you can't beat them, wear one.

Washington betttttter callllllll Tyronne...

will Rick Neuheisel ever come back to college football? How about if Norm Chow leaves, he can be the offensive coordinator at USC! they already have Ken Norton Jr there! Why not another bruin?

Urban Meyer. I really hope he doesn't leave Utah. he has done so much for them. utah needs to offer homeboy lots of bling bling.

[KSigkid]

The problem is that Notre Dame doesn't have the "thing" anymore. They are no different than any other program; they recruit like anyone else, they let athletes off the hook academically like anyone else, and they hire and fire coaches like anyone else. They took the network money and ran. While there used to be a mystique to their football team, it's just not there anymore. The spirit argument is understandable. Honestly, I'd like to see UConn's football program get to that point, so I understand the basis for this.

Amycat, you're right; Meyer does have an out clause in his contract for the Notre Dame job. I would be shocked if he didn't get the job.

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by BobbyTheDon
Amycat, where have you been my whole internet life?

GO TROJANS. if you can't beat them, wear one.

Washington betttttter callllllll Tyronne...

will Rick Neuheisel ever come back to college football? How about if Norm Chow leaves, he can be the offensive coordinator at USC! they already have Ken Norton Jr there! Why not another bruin?

Urban Meyer. I really hope he doesn't leave Utah. he has done so much for them. utah needs to offer homeboy lots of bling bling.

I don't know when Rick "Skippy" Neuheisel would come back to college football. Maybe he can do an offensive coordinator thing in the NFL.
As for Tyrone, it would be cool to see him back at Stanford.

[phikappapsiman]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Maybe Willingham will end up at Pitt after our AD gets rid of Walt Harris ( )

And the game of musical coaches continues...

NO!!!!! Walt Harris comes to Stanford!!! Yea!!!

But as much as I am a fan of Tyrone's (NEVER TY), I knew when he left Stanford that the eventual fall at N.D. would happen. Go 7-4 at Stanford, get a new contract. Beat USC every few years, get a new contract. Beat CAL every year (which he did), get a new contract. Stanford is not a football school by any means-sure we love to win, but we're realistic as well in knowing that success for us is really measured in finishing in the upper half of the PAC-10, and MAYBE going to a bowl game every few years. But Tyrone will land on his feet as maybe a head coach in college or as an assistant in the pros-rumor has it that he might go down to Arizona with Denny Green (another former Stanford head coach), as his assistant.