Pi Kappa Phi chapter at NC State suspended after "embarrassing, scary" book found

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by Kevin

That the entire American fraternal system should be disbanded because two chapters apparently have a bunch of racist asshats in them? I don't think so.

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by thetalady

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

Translation: Be nice to the ugly/fat girls; they may lead you to the hot ones.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by thetalady

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

You have to take all things in context. If they were plotting to lynch someone, that borders on psychotic. If they were trying to be funny by writing things which would shock the conscience, like dead baby jokes (VERY NSFW),

http://www.skrause.org/humor/deadbaby.shtml

Then i'm not going to say they were psychotic... but maybe they were indecent and need to learn that their "humor" can actually cause severe mental anguish for some people. This sort of speech is pervasive within our culture. A lot of it comes from places like 4chan (again, super NSFW) or other websites these kids have been visiting long before they entered the fraternity system.

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

Of course. That said, I'm not going to call for the end of the institution of the American college fraternity because some of their members might make inappropriate jokes. That seems absurd.

And I appreciate what you're saying Mysticat, but to even acknowledge that these people calling for the end of the fraternal system as having some means to accomplish that just encourages them. As long as our national organizations as in this case continue to be good stewards of their reputation, I'm pretty sure we'll be just fine.

[1964Alum]

Originally Posted by thetalady

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

I completely agree. For fraternities to take the position of apologists and minimizers only feeds right into the stereotypes. The reality is that fraternities are now on the ropes. And need to do some SERIOUS self-examination and take effective corrective measures rather than indulge in defensive maneuvers.

Decent people -including current college students and alumni- are horrified by these revelations. And wonder what more is going on behind the closed doors of a fraternity. Who would want to be a part of this?!!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

The reality is that fraternities are now on the ropes. And need to do some SERIOUS self-examination and take effective corrective measures rather than indulge in defensive maneuvers

Nothing could be further from the truth. The fraternal system as a whole is healthy and doing as well as it ever has. The Atlantic has done a pretty decent job of covering these situations and where schools have attempted to shut down fraternities, it hasn't always gone well. Public schools just won't do it. It may be fun to talk about, but it's just not in the cards.

Decent people -including current college students and alumni- are horrified by these revelations. And wonder what more is going on behind the closed doors of a fraternity. Who would want to be a part of this?!!!

Decent people need to stop shitting their pants every time a 19-20 year old does something stupid. Kids did stupid stuff when you were in school. You probably did stupid stuff when you were in school. They will continue to do dumb things. Some things, e.g., offensive jokes, should be forgivable and seen as opportunities to educate and improve lives. Other things, e.g., gang rape, are unforgivable and we should do the utmost to cooperate with Title IX investigators and law enforcement and not attempt to cover up illicit activities. And the thing is--our national offices and officers are pretty darn good at these things. Most schools are as well.

People should really stop saying that we can't handle any more of this or that and that "it must stop" or we're facing some sort of existential crisis. We're not. We are fine. Kids will continue to do stupid things and we'll be fine. Might we close down a chapter for 4 years and recolonize? Yep. As long as net, we're adding more chapters than we're losing, we're winning the war.

At least anecdotally, I have really enjoyed working with my national organization and my school's Greek Life professionals (I know they lurk here) and see them actively working to expand the Greek community (rather than as you suggest to do it harm) and to provide great options for student life on the campus.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

At least anecdotally, I have really enjoyed working with my national organization and my school's Greek Life professionals (I know they lurk here) and see them actively working to expand the Greek community (rather than as you suggest to do it harm) and to provide great options for student life on the campus.

I'm truly glad you've had that experience, but I would not assume that is a universal experience.

And again, I'm not talking about a vast plot from the outside to bring the fraternity system down. I'm talking about the risk of the fraternity system bringing itself down, or at least injuring itself substantially.

[Nanners52674]

M

Originally Posted by thetalady

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

When it comes to these comments online it's not just fraternity guys. Look at what's happened in recent weeks with Curt Schilling and his daughter and then Ashley Judd and her tweet about the UK game. It's like some game where these guys are just trying to say the most shocking thing. It's disgusting and I don't know what's prompted it because these comments are not exclusive to Greek life. People just have no filter and no worry about consequences.

ETA: I don't mean this as an excuse for these comments, at all. I'm just wondering how we got here.

[Sciencewoman]

A chapter sister's son is the president of ATO at NC State. She was very proud when he was elected. They only live about 10 minutes away and she helps out quite a bit. I'm really sorry to hear about this...I hope that in that case, the drug paraphernalia belonged to an isolated member.

[pinksequins]

A lot of this isn't just stupid, Kevin, and I think you know that.

[Kevin]

Are you trying to be obtuse? Memos reminding us about programs we already have in place. Not just memos. Programs already in place.

And the "boys will be boys" concept is no less true than 50 years ago. If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

This. I'd also love to hear it.

[33girl]

It's not the fraternity system coming to an end, it's the WORLD, because holy shit, I still agree with Kevin!!

These kids have known how to access porn and some of the sickest things you could imagine on a computer since they were old enough to toddle. They have zero filter as far as whether they should share a thought in public. Heavens, of COURSE they should, because it is their thought and everything that emits from them is a glitter rainbow. Fraternities didn't do that. They come to school with this attitude.

"It's amazing how long our country has been going to hell without ever having gotten there." -Andy Rooney

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

These kids have known how to access porn and some of the sickest things you could imagine on a computer since they were old enough to toddle. They have zero filter as far as whether they should share a thought in public. Heavens, of COURSE they should, because it is their thought and everything that emits from them is a glitter rainbow. Fraternities didn't do that. They come to school with this attitude.

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not saying fraternities created the problem, though I do acknowledge that some people are saying that. What I am saying is that the task for fraternities is to be seen as part of a solution.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Are you trying to be obtuse? Memos reminding us about programs we already have in place. Not just memos. Programs already in place.

LOL, of course I'm not trying to be obtuse. I knew exactly what you meant. I'm just not impressed by it. Memos telling people to follow the policies in place are the corporate equivalent of "now children, we've told you not do that." The guys who are going to follow the policies will do it anyway. The guys who aren't going to will ignore the memos.

Memos telling members to follow policies may be a start, but my point is that if that's the extent of a response, it's an inadequate response.

And the "boys will be boys" concept is no less true than 50 years ago. If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

The "boys will be boys" concept is an excuse. Of course, people of any age will say stupid things, and I know as well as anyone how the brain and judgment of a 19-year-old boy isn't fully developed.

But you've said yourself that the vast majority of chapters aren't doing these stupid things. So apparently lots of boys won't be boys. Trotting out that excuse does nothing except to appear to tut-tut behavior that is going way beyond just "saying stupid things."

I agree that a Chicken Little response is an over-reaction. But the other extreme is an ostrich with his head in the sand, saying there's no real problem. There is a problem, a cultural problem, and it's in the best interests of fraternities to be seen to be trying to change the culture. We claim to be about creating leaders, so let's let the public see us doing that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that a Chicken Little response is an over-reaction. But the other extreme is an ostrich with his head in the sand, saying there's no real problem. There is a problem, a cultural problem, and it's in the best interests of fraternities to be seen to be trying to change the culture. We claim to be about creating leaders, so let's let the public see us doing that.

Jesus Christ... the national organization has suspended the chapter's charter pending investigation? What more do you want? The CIA to be sent in with waterboards?

And I don't know about your org, but traditional main line fraternities already have a crap ton of programming aimed at diversity, bystander intervention, etc. None of those things and no number of visits from HQ are going to change the fact that we are organizations primarily composed of 18-20 year olds who say and do stupid things from time to time and that will never change no matter what programming we have.

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book. -- Cicero.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by 33girl

These kids

Men

Originally Posted by MysticCat

and I know as well as anyone how the brain and judgment of a 19-year-old boy isn't fully developed.

Man

Originally Posted by Kevin

primarily composed of 18-20 year olds .

white men

***

Men existing in all male spaces, and especially white men existing in all-white or mainly white spaces, have a responsibility to not be racist, to not be sexist, to not rape, to not oppress. When one joins a fraternity, it is understood that those beliefs and actions are not more important than the values of the private organization that they join, not just because the values themselves are pretty much infallible, but there are tangible repercussions to not living up to those values.

I am growing increasingly concerned that the culture of mainly white fraternities and sororities is one that reinforces white supremacy, even in the presence of black members; that reinforces sexism and sexual violence; and fosters a sense of generational entitlement.

For years, going on decades, I used to question, and even be angered by Georgetown's position against recognizing fraternities and sororities. When I went to an administrator about it, he/she said "I understand, and I do think the black/Latino/multicultural sororities and fraternities do a lot of good. But if we recognize those, we have to recognize the white organizations, too. And we don't want to risk that. At least you have city-wide chapters."

From a university's perspective, I now understand. While I don't think Georgetown's decision was necessarily an eloquent one, they needed to take the path of the least liability. By deemed Greek life an off-campus decision in the hands of the students, they have created an environment that they can control through the traditional means of adjudication and grievance, without third party intervention.

Of course, people may still join organizations - you all are well aware that KKG and Theta have colonized in the past year and a half, and that AEPi, SAE, SigEp, and Delta Psi all have chapters on campus. The NPHC presence ebbs and flows, and several LGLOs also have a presence.

I am surprised that I agree with Georgetown's stance, now that I see the damaging effects of the culture of whiteness on the Greek system as a whole. I am not in favor of any institution that reinforces oppression at all, much less in an academic environment.

These are men making decisions. Let them make those decisions off campus. There is precedent, inside and outside of Greek life.

And maybe we can stop making the insurance brokers rich in the process.