He, she or it? Family keeps baby's gender a secret

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I can and I will use God to hope that children are born to strong parents, because many children are not. If it were so, wouldn't have to worry about misguided children.

Uhhhhh...this isn't really an issue of "strong parenting." The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means putting boys in blue and girls in pink; and discouraging any hint of defying gender. The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means teaching heterosexuality and discouraging homosexuality.

Most of these "strong parents" also conveniently use God to support why this is how things are supposed to be. This evening, a "strong parent" who I love with all of my heart talked to me about transgenderism and used the Bible's "...and God created Adam and Eve" to seal the deal.

God + strong parenting = ?????????

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Didn't say solely. Doesn't mean outside forces don't help in the molding, but if parents are not involved at all in positive molding and knowledge of self, that is a sad thing.

Yeah and the family in this article consider themselves doing just that and probably consider themselves "strong parents." They may also consider themselves to be "Godly."

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Nice that the parents have made this choice, I don't agree with their method because it takes the child's ability to choose which stand he or she wishes to take in regards to how he or she wishes to present themselves in this world. Now if the child was older and started showing signs of gender ambiguity and they chose to make support and see where it goes, more power. At the beginning when the only thing the baby knows right now is eat and sleep? Naw don't agree.

You see this the exact opposite of how I see it. The way the average parent does it removes choice from the child. Children do not choose to be given pink baby stuff upon delivery and go home to a "girly nursery." People who have been gender socialized choose this for children. We don't know what children would choose if it is completely up to them from start to finish.

And since children have no real ability to choose anything, I see nothing wrong (as long as it is done sanely) with these parents choosing to go this route for their children just as other parents choose to go the gendered route for their children.

[CutiePie2000]

Storm? Nice to name your kid after an American Gladiator character......

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Storm? Nice to name your kid after an American Gladiator character......

Or.. um.. marvel comic character. Way cooler. I'd name a kid Storm
http://i.imgur.com/mtMrX.jpg
Huge pic, just linking.
Or Nightcrawler.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Storm? Nice to name your kid after an American Gladiator character......

Or....

http://www.parents.com/baby-names/storm/

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Storm

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Or.. um.. marvel comic character. Way cooler. I'd name a kid Storm

Or Nightcrawler.

I tend to stick with Swahili names.

It's interesting because my colleague believes that Black folks who give their kids Swahili names are setting the kids up for discrimination and potential failure (he's an extremist but not completely wrong). The same applies to other "strange names." He shits golf size hail when he hears about parents encouraging children to challenge gender. Reading about a "gender challenged" child named Storm would make him fart a thong bikini unicorn.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I tend to stick with Swahili names.

It's interesting because my colleague believes that Black folks who give their kids Swahili names are setting the kids up for discrimination and potential failure. The same applies to other "strange names." He shits golf size hail when he hears about parents encouraging children to challenging gender. Reading about a "gender challenged" child named Storm would make him fart a thong bikini unicorn.

I think you should bring a camera and a copy of the article and see happens.

Yeah it's possible that some things for the kid(s) might be more difficult later, but there's nothing stopping them from going by another name as an adult. And, it raises the question of whether the parents' goal is to make the child's life easy or to raise their kids the 'right' way, or to make their kids 'happy' and so on. I don't think many if any parents really wish a child's life to be hard, but that doesn't mean they're going to compromise their values to make the child's life easier either.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Uhhhhh...this isn't really an issue of "strong parenting." The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means putting boys in blue and girls in pink; and discouraging any hint of defying gender. The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means teaching heterosexuality and discouraging homosexuality.

Most of these "strong parents" also conveniently use God to support why this is how things are supposed to be. This evening, a "strong parent" who I love with all of my heart talked to me about transgenderism and used the Bible's "...and God created Adam and Eve" to seal the deal.

God + strong parenting = ?????????

Of course it wasn't, you made the choice to include as part of the issue. I only made that comment as an aside to overall parenthood. Not a referendum on these particular parents.

Yeah and the family in this article consider themselves doing just that and probably consider themselves "strong parents." They may also consider themselves to be "Godly."

See above.

I think I need to use God's name more often. It's like a four letter word sometimes in these forums.

You see this the exact opposite of how I see it. The way the average parent does it removes choice from the child. Children do not choose to be given pink baby stuff upon delivery and go home to a "girly nursery." People who have been gender socialized choose this for children. We don't know what children would choose if it is completely up to them from start to finish.

And since children have no real ability to choose anything, I see nothing wrong (as long as it is done sanely) with these parents choosing to go this route for their children just as other parents choose to go the gendered route for their children.

It's one thing to dress your child a certain way, that is fine. The parents should be able to request that just because my child was born a boy does not mean you have to buy blue or pink.

And this is where we differ, because the child has no choice, saying you are not gonna even tell your child's grandparents just to make a point is rather silly. But hey we all can see two sides of an argument. Doesn't mean neither one of us are wrong.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Or.. um.. marvel comic character. Way cooler. I'd name a kid Storm

Random: I considered going by Storm in college. Or Rogue. I really wanted a cool nickname.

Anywho, I agree with Pika. That's what I was thinking when I posted this in N&P. To be 5 years old (or 2 years old) and left with the decision of choosing/rejecting a gender just sounds overwhelming. Leaving it to him to tell people what he is....if he is asking them to let the leaders of the nature center know he is a boy, that is great but I feel like he shouldn't have to ask. They left him to tell staff himself and you know what, he's 5. He shouldn't have to be his own advocate at that age. There is nothing wrong with Jazz being a boy who likes pink and wears his hair long, but for him to be a ________ who likes pink and has long hair is a problem. To just not be taught to ascribe to anything leaves a child open to so many identity issues, possibly moreso than those have "assigned genders" and reject them later. What they are trying to achieve is admirable in theory but the opposite of misguided is not being left unguided.

[AOII Angel]

Meh. There is lots of debate about the effect of parental action on children versus peer involvement in final outcome of childrens' personalities. This little experiment is easier in theory than practice, and subtle bias will effect the final outcome no matter how much the parents wish otherwise. In the end, boys can wear all the pink they want and play with dolls...it doesn't make them gay or more interesting people or more happy...unless of course they really want to wear pink and play with dolls and their parents beat them rather than let them do so.

[CutiePie2000]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It's interesting because my colleague believes that Black folks who give their kids Swahili names are setting the kids up for discrimination and potential failure (he's an extremist but not completely wrong).

He would probably be interested in this article here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle1878414/

PS I personally think some names have certain connotations - Brandy and Destiny are total stripper names. Amber & Crystal are borderline stripper'y sounding. IMHO. I get it that Amber is a fairly "mainstream" name now, but I can't get past the image of "le stripper".

I also get annoyed when people try to give their kids "exotic" foreign names and they cannot get the spelling right. On the Bachelorette, some dude's daughter is named "Cozy", which is short for "Cozette". Nice try, Captain Genius, but "Cosette" from Victor Hugo's "Les Miserables" is spelled with an "S" in it. FAIL.

I also know of a dude from my previous employer whose name was spelled "Juan" and he pronounces it "Jew-wan". This is because his parents were stupid and did not do their research properly. He would also correct people in a rather huffy manner, those who would address him as "Wan" or "Hwan" (which is my phonetic typing approximation for Spanish pronunciation). Sigh.....

And now back to our original thread about parents trying to raise a genderless child or whatever.....

[preciousjeni]

I'm with it. I would do it myself, but not in the same way. I wouldn't mind telling people what the biological sex of my child is, but I also would allow my children to decide what type of clothing and toys they like, and what activities they want to participate in, without regard to social norms.

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Storm? Nice to name your kid after an American Gladiator character......

Are you serious?

[ElieM]

There can be big money in keeping it ambiguous - if you're a model

Check out Andrej Pejic -

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/f...517-1eqas.html

Pejic has ridden a global wave of popularity in fashion circles with his "femiman" look.
His reputation was sealed this year when he appeared as a "bride" with a towering veil headdress on Gaultier's Paris catwalk.
At the last New York fashion week, Pejic modelled in five menswear shows and four womenswear shows.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Of course it wasn't, you made the choice to include as part of the issue. I only made that comment as an aside to overall parenthood. Not a referendum on these particular parents.

Referendum or not, I was only replying to your post. In the context in which we were typing, you ended with "that's life...just pray God gives kids strong parents who will try to teach them how to handle this gender stuff." That implies that people shouldn't wrestle with this too much because God and strong parenting will figure it all out. While I firmly believe in God and strong parenting as a foundation, I do not believe in concluding such discussions with God and strong parenting as though it solves and silences the issue. That happens all the time when people discuss such topics, hence my response.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I'm with it. I would do it myself, but not in the same way. I wouldn't mind telling people what the biological sex of my child is, but I also would allow my children to decide what type of clothing and toys they like, and what activities they want to participate in, without regard to social norms.

That's how some families have done it. You know that it can be a constant struggle whether you tell people the biological sex or not.

In fact, gender can be a struggle even when people are socialized with traditional gender norms. Kids can notice early in their lives that they don't fit them; or they can discover later in life that they never felt "like a boy/man." And that doesn't just apply to children who are considered "dual gendered" or transgendered. "Normal" children also experience gender constrast and gender battles.

Originally Posted by ElieM

There can be big money in keeping it ambiguous - if you're a model

Check out Andrej Pejic -

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/f...517-1eqas.html

There are some really good documentaries about this. The fluidity of gender can also be seen with Toshiya (Hara Toshimara), the bassist for the band Dir en grey.






(The other photos won't load. Google image him to see his looks. )

[AnotherKD]

One of the biggest problems I have with the family is that they are letting their 5-year-old decide whether or not he wants to have any sort of education at this point. 5-year-olds aren't equipped to make lots of sorts of decisions, and going to school or even having some sort of homeschooling lessons is not high on many's agendas. What happens next year or the year after? If he still doesn't want to have any schooling, will the parents really make him? Seems like a lack of parental responsibility to me.

Same goes with what the kids eat. Sure, they need protein and vitamins and nutritious stuff to make them healthy and strong, but he wants to eat Fruit Roll-Ups all day, fine with me!

Between letting their kids pick out what they want to wear (which, by the way, I'm fine with), deciding what they want to do day in and day out, and what they want to eat, it doesn't sound like these parents are doing much of anything.