Does GC have a disproportionately large number of PNM's who don't get bids?

[VandalSquirrel]

We also need to include the parents who come here and talk about their children. If we were going to only look at PNMs who post and report back in full their results, it may be different. I'm also hypothesizing that there may be people who make a thread, even write a full story, then realize they may not want to be outed and so are here with more than one username, and I don't really have a problem with that.

ETA: I can think of one instance a woman had a successful recruitment, posted her story, and her sisters did see her thread and they weren't too happy with what she wrote, though I can't remember if it was about their chapter, another chapter, or both. One rare situation, but it might not be bad to just post after the fact without some if you give enough identifying information or your school is very small.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

These are all good points. It does seem like it's only the SEC schools where PNM's go bidless, and those are the ones where you'd need a lot of prep. I've never seen, for example, a U of I PNM go bidless, and that's a school where you can sign up 15 minutes before orientation starts.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by qbt1990

I went into recruitment being convinced I wouldn't get a bid because of all the horror stories I've heard on GC Luckily I did get a bid. But there are A LOT of unsuccessful recruitment stories on here, unfortunately

Yeah, I think that spending too much time as a PNM on GC really could lead a PNM to think that all recruitments are tough and PNMs are being cut left and right.

It's quite the opposite. The vast majority of PNMs at most schools (even the competitive pnes) do get bids.

[DTD Alum]

I actually think it's completely understandable. By coming onto Greek Chat and asking advice, you're unknowingly also saying that:

1) This is something very foreign and stressful to me
2) I have nobody else to ask these questions of

1) If you are asking this question, this is clearly more scary to you than it is to the average college girl (or boy). Maybe this means you are naturally very shy and hate meeting new people, maybe this means you are a bit of a tomboy who is uncomfortable in very girly situations, maybe you are more of a non-conformist type, maybe this means you are a foreign exchange student who has no idea of how American culture works, etc. Whatever it is, you are clearly not going to fare as well as the PNM who is already very confident meeting new people in a very mainstream oriented, gender conforming process. All young people (regardless of gender) have insecurities, but for many meeting new people of their gender is not one of them. To be so nervous as to ask questions on Greek Chat indicates to me that many do have some degree of fear of that situation.

2) If you have to ask strangers online, there is clearly nobody telling you how the process works which means you are probably pretty far removed from GLOs on your campus (and perhaps in general). Do you think Hometown Hannah whose mother, older sister, older brother's girlfriend and soccer team captain all go to school at her university is going to be asking questions on Greek Chat? At a school with deferred recruitment, is the PNM who already knows 20 sisters going to be asking questions here? At some schools (SEC, some Big Ten, Indiana, USC, etc) not knowing people in chapters may severely hurt you early on.

I think also that there is very little on conversation here. A shy girl may come on this site and see that hey, sororities also look very closely at grades, activities, leadership, etc...maybe it's fine that I'm shy and don't really know how to dress myself. I know this is a major lane swerve, but in terms of fraternities we didn't even look at grades or activities...it was pure personality. I know sororities do look much more intensely, but let's be real...at many schools, it is likely that 90% of the PNMs are relatively close to each other regarding those qualities. That's how college admissions work. I think conversation and meeting new strangers is a very underemphasized topic and is probably the main reason that many PNMs are released.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I have made this observation before.

I find this to be particularly true with the more competitive schools.

My theory is that the PNMs who come here for advice on some of the big rush schools are at a disadvantage because they're not going to be as well prepared as some of the other girls who don't NEED the internet to help prep for recruitment (who maybe have friends/family/etc who have rushed at those schools).

Ex: if you're coming here asking "do I need recs? where do I get them from? what do I wear?" in like mid-June, you're not going to be as prepared as Suzy who has friends who have rushed at the same school, plenty of rec connections, etc. and doesn't have to ask those questions. And you probably are less likely to get a bid.

Does that make sense?

this!

[EE-BO]

Agree with most of you, and KSUViolet really hit it on the head with the quoted piece in underline from the post above by FSUZeta.

I have not been as watchful of the Recruitment forum over the years as some- so I could be wrong- but it seems like we have a disproportionate number of threads for competitive southern schools relative to the population of schools nationwide with sororities on campus.

So take that into account with what KSUViolet says, and I think you have the answer for why there appear to be an inordinate number of unhappy outcomes posted on GC.

Consider too that at more competitive schools it is common for women to drop out of rush or not accept a bid if they do not get into a "top tier" house.

It would be interesting to take the number of threads where a young woman ends up GDI and split it out between those who were dropped entirely and those who quit of their own accord while they still had some choices. The latter are not a small group. Also consider the ones who rush as sophomores or juniors and don't disclose it up front when starting a thread. Either these women have the basic understanding it will be a harder road and refuse to post their info out of some sense of creating an alternate reality rather than get good advice about how they should rush, or they have absolutely no clue and have done no research about a huge financial and personal decision they are about to undertake. The rush threads that save these key details for much, much later are the ones that trouble me most. And they almost never have happy endings...

But leaving that aside, I think the most important thing to remember is that sorority life is one step on a journey in life. Just as it helps prepare one for the future, so does it require that a PNM come into it prepared- all the more so at competitive schools.

Too often with threads here, and VERY MUCH with the AI threads- we see PNMs and PNAIMs who seem to think that sorority life is somehow going to validate them as individuals or somehow make them the person they want to be without them making the effort on their own to be that person regardless of whether they are Greek or not. Rather than look at their own lives and how sorority life could be a rewarding future path, they are relying on the sorority experience to create that path for them. Both options require very different planning strategies- and the former is far more likely to succeed.

Whether one is at a competitive school or a school where advance preparation for rush is not important- and whether a person is looking at a top tier house, "settling" for anything just to have letters or joining a colony- this latter type of person I mention can be spotted a mile away; and the targeted group is going to feel rightly insulted.

Every story is different- and my comments are not directed at anyone in particular. But in GC threads on rush I very often spot signs of individuals who are looking for sorority life to somehow offer some easy magical transformation into the person a PNM wants to be. It is easily spotted when one is telling a detailed story about rush or asking lots of questions. And that person is more likely to come post a rush story on an internet forum than someone who is well prepared and has their future in hand- at least with regards to southern schools.

I am not saying rush threads should go away- they are great. But it is pretty easy to tell when someone is doing the world a good turn by posting their story versus someone who is seeking a cheerleading section in the hopes it will make something happen.

[Gusteau]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but mostly this:

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I am not saying rush threads should go away- they are great. But it is pretty easy to tell when someone is doing the world a good turn by posting their story versus someone who is seeking a cheerleading section in the hopes it will make something happen.

I think the insight injected into "retro" threads is much more interesting than the "cheerleader" live threads.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

I think conversation and meeting new strangers is a very underemphasized topic and is probably the main reason that many PNMs are released.

I tend to agree with this too.

Many times, when PNMs come here and ask "what happened?" we are only presented with that PNM's "tangibles" if you will.

Ex: When Suzy posts about not getting a bid, she mentions that she has a 3.9, was involved in 3 clubs, etc.

That's great, but we don't get a picture of how Suzy behaved in the parties and in her interactions with sorority members.

You could be great on paper (really, a lot of women who pursue sorority membership are) but just don't come across well in conversation.

Sorority women at most schools are presented with hundreds of girls who on paper, look like girls that any chapter would be glad to have. So that's usually not what gets you an invite.

If a chapter has one invite left and it's between 2 girls who are equally awesome in grades, involvement, etc. the girl who gets it is likely going to be the one:

*who PRESENTS herself best in person
*comes across as someone that the active members could potentially SEE themselves interacting with on a regular basis.
*didn't force the active to maintain the convo (and kept the convo going).
*who presented herself as interested in hearing what members had to say (not yawning, going on and on about being tired, etc)

So Suzy might feel like "I had x, y, and z things, why didn't they want me?" when they don't truly know that your tangibles are really just one piece of the puzzle.

This also means that when presented with a girl who has a perfect GPA, valedictorian, 3 clubs, who was totally flat conversation wise, she might get passed over for Girl B with the 3.3 who played softball for 3 years because she was nice, fun, and seemed to really enjoy talking to people.

This seems like a long drawn out ramble to me but it made sense in my head, I swear.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I tend to agree with this too.

Many times, when PNMs come here and ask "what happened?" we are only presented with that PNM's "tangibles" if you will.

Ex: When Suzy posts about not getting a bid, she mentions that she has a 3.9, was involved in 3 clubs, etc.

That's great, but we don't get a picture of how Suzy behaved in the parties and in her interactions with sorority members.

You could be great on paper (really, a lot of women who pursue sorority membership are) but just don't come across well in conversation.

Sorority women at most schools are presented with hundreds of girls who on paper, look like girls that any chapter would be glad to have. So that's usually not what gets you an invite.

If a chapter has one invite left and it's between 2 girls who are equally awesome in grades, involvement, etc. the girl who gets it is likely going to be the one:

*who PRESENTS herself best in person
*comes across as someone that the active members could potentially SEE themselves interacting with on a regular basis.
*didn't force the active to maintain the convo (and kept the convo going).
*who presented herself as interested in hearing what members had to say (not yawning, going on and on about being tired, etc)

So Suzy might feel like "I had x, y, and z things, why didn't they want me?" when they don't truly know that your tangibles are really just one piece of the puzzle.

This also means that when presented with a girl who has a perfect GPA, valedictorian, 3 clubs, who was totally flat conversation wise, she might get passed over for Girl B with the 3.3 who played softball for 3 years because she was nice, fun, and seemed to really enjoy talking to people.

This seems like a long drawn out ramble to me but it made sense in my head, I swear.

It does make sense. It reinforces what my mom always told me-if you ACT like you're someone everyone wants to know and they'll think you are. (Act confident and everyone will think you are...and as a result, you'll be confident.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Well, on a related note, is there better advice we could be giving to SuzieShyness when she comes on here asking for help getting ready for rush?

I see, for example, tons of advice on what to wear. As an active, I don't remember caring what a PNM wore at all (though I know I was at a very non-competitive school and YMMV).

[BraveMaroon]

But the question is - how would you know what questions to ask unless you already had an idea of what you needed to know? So, it's great if you're Louise Legacy, but not all PNMs are. Some of them may not have any frame of reference.

Prior to rushing, all I knew about Greek Life was that my sister was in a house at a small school that didn't have a huge system, nor competitive Rush. And I had seen Animal House, and loved it.

So I went into Rush at UGA with one recommendation. One. I didn't know any better. "The Pointer", our official Rush Guide showed us what to wear, what each round consisted of, but that was it. And I didn't have the interwebs to run to, and I didn't know many older women who had been in houses to talk to.

I also didn't even blink when I got cut hard after first round because I didn't know any better. And I got a bid. Good grades, tons of activities and being able to keep a conversation going with a brick wall helped. Not crying everytime I got a party list, that was probably equally to my benefit.

My roommate went in with tons of recs, a whole litany of legacies and she never pledged anywhere because she was too laser focused on the "one house" where she belonged.

The skills needed to Rush successfully aren't that different from some basic "good to have" life skills - dressing properly for the occasion, talking to people you may not have much in common with, asking good questions to the right people, networking...

And I know, they don't call it Rush anymore, but you know what I mean.

[greekxgal]

Well, I'm one of the only ppl I know going through formal recruitment at the University of Washington (which generally guarantees bids, as far as I know) who visits Greek chat, and one of the only ones I know who got cut. I'm thinking that the sorority members see us posting and cut us because we're breaking the silence rule or whatever.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by greekxgal

Well, I'm one of the only ppl I know going through formal recruitment at the University of Washington (which generally guarantees bids, as far as I know) who visits Greek chat, and one of the only ones I know who got cut. I'm thinking that the sorority members see us posting and cut us because we're breaking the silence rule or whatever.

I know you're hurting right now, and are looking for a reason, but there is no "silence rule" that covers posting on GreekChat.

[FleurGirl]

I've noticed the same thing, and I think that it could be one and/or two things:
a) The girls seeking advice tend to be from big, competitive schools and/or
b) The girls who look for advice on GC are the ones who don't have resources regarding greek life readily available in their personal connections... No legacies, greek friends, familiarity with the system, etc.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by greekxgal

Well, I'm one of the only ppl I know going through formal recruitment at the University of Washington (which generally guarantees bids, as far as I know) who visits Greek chat, and one of the only ones I know who got cut. I'm thinking that the sorority members see us posting and cut us because we're breaking the silence rule or whatever.

First of all, I am sorry you were cut.

It's likely not that. Plenty of PNMs post recruitment stories (even when there are active members from their school posting here during recruitment) and end up with bids. It really only has the potential to affect a PNM if they post rude things about chapters.

Might I suggest taking a look at this thread when you have time?