Recs aren't [are!] necessary

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

First of all, there is no "rule" that PNMs can't be told some groups require recs for a bid. Don't know where you got that.

I got it from lots of comments on this forum, such as this one in the OP:

Originally Posted by Parfait

Why do universities have to say recs aren't required even when they are at some schools? Do they have to say recs are not required as in a legal reason?

and this one by MaggieXi in the now-locked thread about the disappointing high school experience:

I'll reiterate what everyone else has says: The Greek Life office HAS to tell you that recs aren't necessary.

Oh, and I also got it from this you said:

Originally Posted by Titchou

That being said, the college PH, as an extension of NPC, cannot tell the PNMs that recs are required as they have to reflect NPC. And since NPC can't say you have to have them - as the individual groups determine what you have to have to join them - the CPH has to follow the parent organization.

If you'll notice, I was asking if I was understanding what y'all are saying, and what the Green Book says, correctly.

What the CPH can't say is that you have to get them yourself. It violates the NPC rule that was quoted previously from the Manual of Information (aka Green Book).

That's what I was asking for clarification about. But posts like the ones I quoted seem to suggest a broader proscription about what can't be said -- that PNMs can't be told recs are necessary at a given school, even if everyone who knows anything knows they really are. Hence, my desire to understand the rules better.

Anything beyond that is private MS information and no one here is going to give that out.

And now it's my turn: I don't know where, by my asking for clarification about the rule on what CPHs can and can't tell PNMs regarding recs, you thought I was asking anything about private member selection.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AZ-AlphaXi

Here's the paragraph in the NPC Manual

Letters of Recommendation (B-1992)
The responsibility for providing letters of recommendation for prospective
new members rests with the members of NPC fraternities, and recruitment
information distributed through College and Alumnae Panhellenics shall
contain nothing that infers that letters of recommendation must be secured
by the potential new member.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

It's not your school that requires them, it's individual organizations, and it could be that all the organizations on your campus happen to require them.

Hopefully the Recruitment Counselors will be able to step in and let PNM's know they need recs.

This is exactly it.

Panhellenic - the entity - does NOT require women to secure recs to participate in formal recruitment. All it requires is that you be female, be an enrolled student, pay your fee, and have whatever GPA is required.

Formal recruitment is an event run by panhellenic. It is NOT the only way to join a NPC sorority. This is evidenced by the fact that at some campuses, there are NPC sororities who do NOT participate in it. If Boo Boo Mu wants to do that, they are more than allowed to put on their personal webpage, brochures and a t-shirt, "You must have a letter of recommendation from an alumna of Boo Boo Mu to become a member. If we really like you, we might go out and get one for you; but that's kind of a pain in the ass for us, so you'd probably make more points with us if you went out and got it yourself."

This disconnect could conceivably be remedied if all the NPC groups were to tell NPC their exact membership selection policies. However, I don't see that ever happening.

[PNM_fashionista]

I'm a PNM, so I don't want to butt in with opinions, but I thought some of y'all might like to see what the current recruitment guides at a few SEC schools actually say regarding recs.

"Recommendations/References forms are specific to each sorority, and we suggest that each Potential New Member (PNM) try to secure at least one Recommendation/Reference on the sorority’s official form for each of the 15 chapters that are participating in fall Sorority Recruitment. It is common to send multiple Recommendation/Reference to one sorority from separate alumnae; however, it is unnecessary to exceed three. Use personal discretion when deciding how many you will send."

"It is important to have ONE letter of recommendation per house. Chapters have strict rules requiring that they give top consideration to those applicants who have recs."

"While it is recommended that you secure
as many recs as possible, remember that it is ultimately not
your obligation to solicit recs so don’t worry if you can’t
find a letter for a certain sorority – the sororities will also
be looking for recs on you. Sometimes it can be difficult for
sororities to secure recs for all PNMs so it is extremely
helpful to them for you to send in recs."

"Similar to the references that one might have when applying for a job, a recommendation introduces a potential member to a sorority chapter. It is simply a supplement to the information that the chapter will receive through the Panhellenic Recruitment Registration form. Think of obtaining a recommendation as completing extra credit for class. You can succeed without it, but it never hurts to try."

[Titchou]

MysticCat: You asked why PNMs can't be told that SOME groups require recs. That is the question I was answering...not whether recs are required for the campus. That is an entirely different question. There is nothing in the rules that keep a CPH from telling PNMs that SOME groups require recs but they cannot tell them the namesof the ones that do...nor can they say it's requiredfor the whole campus.
I only know what you say, not what you mean to say.

[SWTXBelle]

To offer a take on Pascal's Wager - A PNM should wager on recs being required, because doing so a PNM has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. In other words, better to have the recs and possibly not need them, than to need them and not have them.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Titchou

MysticCat: You asked why PNMs can't be told that SOME groups require recs. That is the question I was answering...not whether recs are required for the campus. That is an entirely different question. There is nothing in the rules that keep a CPH from telling PNMs that SOME groups require recs but they cannot tell them the namesof the ones that do...nor can they say it's requiredfor the whole campus.
I only know what you say, not what you mean to say.

I have no idea what you're saying here. And like MC I don't know how you thought he was asking about anything that could get close to MS.

But the more we discuss it the less clear it gets.

[Titchou]

OK, one more time and that's it. There is a difference between "you need recs" and "some groups require recs." Is there some part of that you don't understand? MC's question was with regard to telling PNMs that some require recs. MC did not ask about all groups...though I suspect that was the intention. Like I said, I only know what you say, not what you mean to say....so say what you mean because I will parse it! And I was just fending off the next question by the remark about MS....

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Titchou

OK, one more time and that's it. There is a difference between "you need recs" and "some groups require recs." Is there some part of that you don't understand? MC's question was with regard to telling PNMs that some require recs. MC did not ask about all groups...though I suspect that was the intention. Like I said, I only know what you say, not what you mean to say....so say what you mean because I will parse it! And I was just fending off the next question by the remark about MS....

Sorry, no it's just gotten incredibly muddled

I think the perception that MC had gotten was that it was against the rules to tell PNMs about needing recs at all. However it's been clarified that it isn't wrong to say "some groups require recs, getting them isn't a bad idea."

So, perhaps to summarize:

1. College Panhellenics must not tell PNMs that it is required that they secure letters of recommendation.
2. College Panhellenics may tell PNMs that acquiring recs is a good idea and can only help their recruitment.
3. Some college Panhellenics tell PNMs that they don't need recs at all. Even if the campus is relatively uncompetitive it is still a good idea for PNMs to acquire recs anyway. If the campus is competitive it is very important for PNMs to acquire recs.
4. There are a few exceptions to every rule but there are only a few. Despite the fact that a sorority can get a rec for an otherwise rec-less PNM if they really want her, it can hurt her chances at a successful recruitment to be without them.
5. Recs are more meaningful when written by someone who knows the PNM personally, but if you don't know anyone from a particular sorority then getting a rec is the most important.

[LadyLonghorn]

The University of Texas Panhellenic Council finally decided to be honest about the recommendation situation on their web site last year:

Although recommendations are optional to participate in UT Recruitment, the majority of houses cannot invite you back past open house and may have to release you from their house without having a recommendation letter for you. Thererefore, it is HIGHLY encouraged to get recommendation letters for all 13 sororities at UT.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

MysticCat: You asked why PNMs can't be told that SOME groups require recs. That is the question I was answering...not whether recs are required for the campus.

Actually, that's not the question I asked, at least not the main question. DF is exactly, right. From many of the posts lately, including yours, the clear impression was being given that CPJs must tell PNMs that recs are not required. Period.

After the language from the Green Book was posted, I specifically saying that I was trying to understand this conversation and asked:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Reading the paragraph above, it seems to me that it's saying that providing/securing recommendations is a responsibility of collegiate members and/or alumnae, not of PNMs, and that PNMs can't be told it's their responsibility. That seems to be a little different from saying that PNMs can't be told recs are necessary. Am I missing something?

You actually answered that question, although you didn't acknowledge that it was what I had asked.

Originally Posted by Titchou

First of all, there is no "rule" that PNMs can't be told some groups require recs for a bid. Don't know where you got that. What the CPH can't say is that you have to get them yourself.

Then you somehow went to membership selection, about which I asked zilch.

I did then ask another two additional questions:

And if I am [missing something], what's the reason behind a blanket rule that PNMs can't be told that recs are needed when some organizations require them? Why wouldn't the rule be that PNMs should be told that rules about the necessity of recs vary from organization to organization?

I think it's pretty clear that the second question (why not say some groups) was related to the first (if I'm missing something, what's the reason for the rule). Simple answer would have been "They can say some orgs require recs." But instead, you went with wondering where I got the idea they couldn't say that.

I only know what you say, not what you mean to say.

You really need to give that line a rest. It's not working for you.

[FSUZeta]

abbiedae,

girls who don't have recs. or have not bothered to secure recs. for themselves are taking a chance on being asked back to the next round of parties-especially at schools with competitive recruitment and/or large numbers of pnms.

there probably is the rare instance where a girl makes it all the way through to prefs. and gets a bid, but those instances will be few and far between. if that happens, and the rules of the sorority require that a girl have a rec. before she can be pledged, then an alumna will write one for her. i do know of more instances where girls did not think they had recs., but they actually did, either thru requests made by their mother or another relative or friend.

i also know of too, too many times where great girls did not have recs. and because the chapter had to drop xxx amount of pnms after the first round of parties, they got dropped.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Actually, that's not the question I asked, at least not the main question. DF is exactly, right. From many of the posts lately, including yours, the clear impression was being given that CPJs must tell PNMs that recs are not required. Period.

Recs are not required to participate in formal rush, which is an event run by the college Panhellenic. Therefore the CP can't tell rushees they must have them.

College Panhellenics cannot tell PNMs it's their responsibility to secure recs because they don't know for sure if individual NPC groups require them as a condition of receiving a bid.

You really have to think of Panhellenic as a completely separate entity, and then it makes more sense.

[Parfait]

Thank you for the replies, I have to say they have been quite educational.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Recs are not required to participate in formal rush, which is an event run by the college Panhellenic. Therefore the CP can't tell rushees they must have them.

College Panhellenics cannot tell PNMs it's their responsibility to secure recs because they don't know for sure if individual NPC groups require them as a condition of receiving a bid.

You really have to think of Panhellenic as a completely separate entity, and then it makes more sense.

It does make much more sense that way. Thanks!

[Titchou]

Sometimes we say things that we think communicate correctly what we want. However, there are differences. As an example:

As my sister's 60th birthday approached, I asked her if she was having a party (she lives out of state). She said to me "It's not that I don't want a party for my birthday. What I want for my birthday is not to have a party. There is difference."