Southern accents, Eastern accents, Northern accents and Ebonics

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I was in linguistics (many moons ago) , we studied "Black Standard English Variant". I remember when the hue and cry about "Ebonics" was in the news - am now curious as to who coined the phrase. I don't much like it - "ebony" + "phonics".

My linguistics friends are very intrigued by it.

Dr. Robert Williams coined it in the 1960s-1970s(?). More specifically:
"Ebonics, a blend of ebony and phonics, is a racially affirmative term that was
first coined in the Black Pride era to refer to the full communicative competence of African-American slave descendents (Williams 1975: vi)" (Ronkin and Karn 1999)

Ebonics is often used interchangeably with Black English. But scholars like Smith and Crozier (1998) argue that Ebonics and Black English aren't interchangeable.

I remember my first exposure was as a college fresh(wo)man as the only black person in the classroom. Of course I was made into the authority on affirmative action and all things "black." So one day the professor said "today we are going to discuss Black English or EBONICS." I immediately said "there's no such thing." And he quickly changed the topic. LOL. While I now believe there is a such thing and understand why it is studied, I wasn't about to sit through that lecture back then because I had already been subjected to a semester's worth of what my classmates felt about what they perceived to be "black stuff."

[SWTXBelle]

One thing I would be interested in (that we didn't get into in my classes) is the regional differences in Black Standard English. Surely New Yorkers don't talk like Georgians, no matter their skin colour. So, which is the most important - the region, or the racial/cultural group? Is it the family that determines the dialect, or the peer group?
In my personal experience, children of immigrants seem to be more influenced by their surrounding community. Rarely do you hear the children having the accent of their elders. But within non-immigrant families, I think more of the over-all accent/linguistic standards of the family seem to be apparent in the children. I grew up all over the country, and while I don't have a deep southern accent, there's no doubt where I'm from when I speak.
Anyone have any thoughts?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

I don't think you know what Ebonics is.

bitchassness.....lol

Why does that sound like sumn u made up?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I was in linguistics (many moons ago) , we studied "Black Standard English Variant". I remember when the hue and cry about "Ebonics" was in the news - am now curious as to who coined the phrase. I don't much like it - "ebony" + "phonics".

soem idiots in Oakland....

BTW....maybe it's just me, but I don't buy into the whole "Black English BS...."

I do however believe in dialects and that depending on where you are you will be able to distinguish....for instance if you go to some parts of Bal'more, you can hear this....


I think either you speak 'proper' english or you don't.....

[SWTXBelle]

Well, linguistics studies what IS - not necessarily what you think should be. There is indeed a dialect known by various titles, but you can think of it as Network Standard English. Probably what you mean by "proper English" - actually spoken by relatively few outside of those who have had voice and diction or speech classes.
I think it fair to say that there is indeed a dialect, call it Eubonics or BSEV, that is identifiable and can be discussed in scientific, linguistic language. Transitive be, anyone?

[em_adpi]

Originally Posted by epchick

This reminds me of the time that I went to Dallas and seriously felt like I had culture shock. I mean I was borned and raised in Texas, but being from El Paso you rarely (like less than 1% of the time) meet anyone w/ a southern accent. So when I was in Dallas, I was just ...according to my dad (who's originally from New Jersey) El Pasoans have more of a "midwestern accent" than anything southern.

My little sis is from the Longview area and has the DEEPEST southern accent I've ever heard. I love it. I have a slight accent on occasion; apparently it's gotten 'worse' since I moved from San Antonio to Fort Worth. Who knew?

When I lived in Boston, I was teased by my Yankee friends frequently because I didn't drop my R's. I've decided that I speak two languages: Northern and Southern.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

bitchassness.....lol

Why does that sound like sumn u made up?

Actually, the phrase was recently made popular by Diddy (aka Sean Combs) on Making the Band 4. Why don't you pop over to MTV.com, see if you can catch a streaming episode and watch in wonder as his stupid ramblings turned into an overnight sensation!

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

bitchassness.....lol

Why does that sound like sumn u made up?

Seriously Daemon, I didn't make it up. I would post the link, but I don't think that would be a good idea.

DSTCHAOS, I wasn't making fun of the slang that was being used, I was laughing at the translator. I wasn't trying to offend anyone and I totally apologize if I did.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

the region, or the racial/cultural group? Is it the family that determines the dialect, or the peer group?

1. With education and occupation controlled for, racial/cultural group matters more than region. Aside from accents and minor differences in phrases used (these differences have been reduced through media exposure to other people and places), sentence structures are extremely similar. Now if we were talking about the Gullah Sea Islands, that would be a different story but even this is a perfect example of "Slave dialect heritage mixed with...other stuff" and there are similarities between Gullah dialect and Ebonics.

2. Family when the person is younger and peer groups as the person ages and (usually) begins to spend more time at school, work, and away from the family. The same as any other learned behavior.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

DSTCHAOS, I wasn't making fun of the slang that was being used, I was laughing at the translator. I wasn't trying to offend anyone and I totally apologize if I did.

No harm no foul.

But once again, Ebonics isn't "slang" and you should find another way to joke about a GC translator than to call the crappy translated sentences Ebonics.

[SWTXBelle]

Earponics?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

soem idiots in Oakland....

Idiots = an educated and accomplished black scholar and years worth of scholars who have studied this?

Ok but you'd be the idiot if you attended a conference in any of the disciplines where Ebonics or Black English is discussed. You'd be debating based on emotion and your limited experiences and they'd be discussing based on research and studies in various times and spaces.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

BTW....maybe it's just me, but I don't buy into the whole "Black English BS...."

You aren't the only one but thank God that none of the theory and research begin or end with you or any other naysayer.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I do however believe in dialects and that depending on where you are you will be able to distinguish....for instance if you go to some parts of Bal'more, you can hear this....

If you go to some parts of B-more, you will also be subjected to horrendous house music.

But the main point of studying linguistics and socio-linguistics is to celebrate patterns of language that expand across regional and other distinctions.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I think either you speak 'proper' english or you don't.....

Right and most people who study Ebonics and Black English are not saying that all black people speak it (but not speaking it doesn't mean you don't understand it) or that this passes off as "proper" English. However, there are teachers and academics who try to change classroom climates in many schools to accomodate for students who speak Ebonics (similar to ESL) but this is generally a bad idea because you have to prepare kids for the working world.

It's also important to note that the average American regardless of race does not speak or write "proper" English. Even some very educated people make some very common mistakes when speaking and writing. It's only a "problem" that generates "outrage" when you associate a racial or ethnic minority group's linguistic patterns to this.

As an aside, I get bothered when people say "complected" and I usually hear black people say it so that shaped how I felt about its usage. But it actually isn't incorrect and has falsely been used as a sign of "poor education" and "Black English."

[catiebug]

How do you get Dunkin Donuts coffee out from between the letter keys on your keyboard? I just spit out a mouthful and laughed so hard, I wheezed. People from the offices next to me came running to see if I was okay.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Earponics?

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

What you are talking about is really linguistics - which is fascinating. Language is never static. I think that media saturation and technological advances means it can do so at a faster rate than before, certainly. And some types of slang and colloquial speech are no longer geographically limited in the way it was before. So, a catchphrase on a television show can sweep the country almost overnight.
On what I consider a positive note, linguists have been surprised at the entrenched nature of regional accents and speech. There was a theory that tv would erase such differences. But it hasn't happened.

I'm not just talking about Ebonics here. I'm talking about how things have changed, and how things could change in the future based on patterns. When I mentioned Shakespear's English which is about 400 years old, I think reading his English and comparing it to English today, along with other historical trends are very useful guides to the way it could change in the future. One common prediction is that Modern English is following the same path as classsical Latin which at one time was a global language that evolved gradually, broke apart and was eventually buried. Even Latin split into distinct regional dialects as time went on and later, it evolved into unintelligible languages.

I don't think we should totally rely on history because it can only take us so far, but the way global communications are today, are far from anything seen in the past. I think vocabulary changes not so much because new words are invented but because words take new meanings and are combined in new ways, which is why I don't see anything wrong with urban slang and why I was not making fun of it. I think with this, more than likely a couple hundred years from now the English language will be harder to understand. I think the vowels have changed the most. The consonants have pretty much been fairly stable. I would have to do some research on that to find out why though.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by catiebug

How do you get Dunkin Donuts coffee out from between the letter keys on your keyboard? I just spit out a mouthful and laughed so hard, I wheezed. People from the offices next to me came running to see if I was okay.

Now, Dunkin Donuts is a regional thing, at least up until the past few years. I heard from my inlaws that Arkansas now has them. Only, they actually go there for the donuts, not the coffee or bagels, which cancels out the true Dunk's experience.

It's funny because now that Krispy Kreme is up here in the north, people are so excited because they love the donuts. Because, you know, no one really gets donuts at Dunk's.

I personally love the munchkins. Only chocolate though. Mostly because they have no calories, being donut holes and all.