Southern accents, Eastern accents, Northern accents and Ebonics

[SWTXBelle]

When I was in linguistics (many moons ago) , we studied "Black Standard English Variant". I remember when the hue and cry about "Ebonics" was in the news - am now curious as to who coined the phrase. I don't much like it - "ebony" + "phonics".

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I was in linguistics (many moons ago) , we studied "Black Standard English Variant". I remember when the hue and cry about "Ebonics" was in the news - am now curious as to who coined the phrase. I don't much like it - "ebony" + "phonics".

My linguistics friends are very intrigued by it.

Dr. Robert Williams coined it in the 1960s-1970s(?). More specifically:
"Ebonics, a blend of ebony and phonics, is a racially affirmative term that was
first coined in the Black Pride era to refer to the full communicative competence of African-American slave descendents (Williams 1975: vi)" (Ronkin and Karn 1999)

Ebonics is often used interchangeably with Black English. But scholars like Smith and Crozier (1998) argue that Ebonics and Black English aren't interchangeable.

I remember my first exposure was as a college fresh(wo)man as the only black person in the classroom. Of course I was made into the authority on affirmative action and all things "black." So one day the professor said "today we are going to discuss Black English or EBONICS." I immediately said "there's no such thing." And he quickly changed the topic. LOL. While I now believe there is a such thing and understand why it is studied, I wasn't about to sit through that lecture back then because I had already been subjected to a semester's worth of what my classmates felt about what they perceived to be "black stuff."

[SWTXBelle]

One thing I would be interested in (that we didn't get into in my classes) is the regional differences in Black Standard English. Surely New Yorkers don't talk like Georgians, no matter their skin colour. So, which is the most important - the region, or the racial/cultural group? Is it the family that determines the dialect, or the peer group?
In my personal experience, children of immigrants seem to be more influenced by their surrounding community. Rarely do you hear the children having the accent of their elders. But within non-immigrant families, I think more of the over-all accent/linguistic standards of the family seem to be apparent in the children. I grew up all over the country, and while I don't have a deep southern accent, there's no doubt where I'm from when I speak.
Anyone have any thoughts?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

the region, or the racial/cultural group? Is it the family that determines the dialect, or the peer group?

1. With education and occupation controlled for, racial/cultural group matters more than region. Aside from accents and minor differences in phrases used (these differences have been reduced through media exposure to other people and places), sentence structures are extremely similar. Now if we were talking about the Gullah Sea Islands, that would be a different story but even this is a perfect example of "Slave dialect heritage mixed with...other stuff" and there are similarities between Gullah dialect and Ebonics.

2. Family when the person is younger and peer groups as the person ages and (usually) begins to spend more time at school, work, and away from the family. The same as any other learned behavior.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

In my personal experience, children of immigrants seem to be more influenced by their surrounding community. Rarely do you hear the children having the accent of their elders. But within non-immigrant families, I think more of the over-all accent/linguistic standards of the family seem to be apparent in the children. I grew up all over the country, and while I don't have a deep southern accent, there's no doubt where I'm from when I speak.
Anyone have any thoughts?

I agree with this. I am the daughter of an immigrant, and while my mother has a very thick Bavarian accent (even 40 years later), none of my siblings have a one-- although we can all mimic the Bavarian pronounciation of english words (the th at the end of a word in more like an s, etc.). Interestingly, I spent three years in speech therapy as a child because the school said I didn't pronounce my th, s, and z sounds correctly-- I pronounced them they way my mother did.

I also notice slight regional differences even within the "Midwest" accent.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I was in linguistics (many moons ago) , we studied "Black Standard English Variant". I remember when the hue and cry about "Ebonics" was in the news - am now curious as to who coined the phrase. I don't much like it - "ebony" + "phonics".

soem idiots in Oakland....

BTW....maybe it's just me, but I don't buy into the whole "Black English BS...."

I do however believe in dialects and that depending on where you are you will be able to distinguish....for instance if you go to some parts of Bal'more, you can hear this....


I think either you speak 'proper' english or you don't.....

[SWTXBelle]

Well, linguistics studies what IS - not necessarily what you think should be. There is indeed a dialect known by various titles, but you can think of it as Network Standard English. Probably what you mean by "proper English" - actually spoken by relatively few outside of those who have had voice and diction or speech classes.
I think it fair to say that there is indeed a dialect, call it Eubonics or BSEV, that is identifiable and can be discussed in scientific, linguistic language. Transitive be, anyone?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

soem idiots in Oakland....

Idiots = an educated and accomplished black scholar and years worth of scholars who have studied this?

Ok but you'd be the idiot if you attended a conference in any of the disciplines where Ebonics or Black English is discussed. You'd be debating based on emotion and your limited experiences and they'd be discussing based on research and studies in various times and spaces.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

BTW....maybe it's just me, but I don't buy into the whole "Black English BS...."

You aren't the only one but thank God that none of the theory and research begin or end with you or any other naysayer.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I do however believe in dialects and that depending on where you are you will be able to distinguish....for instance if you go to some parts of Bal'more, you can hear this....

If you go to some parts of B-more, you will also be subjected to horrendous house music.

But the main point of studying linguistics and socio-linguistics is to celebrate patterns of language that expand across regional and other distinctions.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I think either you speak 'proper' english or you don't.....

Right and most people who study Ebonics and Black English are not saying that all black people speak it (but not speaking it doesn't mean you don't understand it) or that this passes off as "proper" English. However, there are teachers and academics who try to change classroom climates in many schools to accomodate for students who speak Ebonics (similar to ESL) but this is generally a bad idea because you have to prepare kids for the working world.

It's also important to note that the average American regardless of race does not speak or write "proper" English. Even some very educated people make some very common mistakes when speaking and writing. It's only a "problem" that generates "outrage" when you associate a racial or ethnic minority group's linguistic patterns to this.

As an aside, I get bothered when people say "complected" and I usually hear black people say it so that shaped how I felt about its usage. But it actually isn't incorrect and has falsely been used as a sign of "poor education" and "Black English."

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

If you go to some parts of B-more, you will also be subjected to horrendous house music.






Right and most people who study Ebonics and Black English are not saying that all black people speak it (but not speaking it doesn't mean you don't understand it) or that this passes off as "proper" English. However, there are teachers and academics who try to change classroom climates in many schools to accomodate for students who speak Ebonics (similar to ESL) but this is generally a bad idea because you have to prepare kids for the working world.



As an aside, I get bothered when people say "complected" and I usually hear black people say it so that shaped how I felt about its usage. But it actually isn't incorrect and has falsely been used as a sign of "poor education" and "Black English."

1. That horrendous house music you are referring to is actually called 'club music' and it's probably one of the most irritating sounds I have heard in all of my life...you want some good house music...altho i haven't bee in over a decade...go to the Paradox. Matter of fact I got tons of the stuff on my PC...I would gladly send you some if interested...


2. In short, that i why I have dismissed teaching Ebonics...it was a very poor excuse of not teaching kids proper grammar by dumbing them down...

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

1. That horrendous house music you are referring to is actually called 'club music' and it's probably one of the most irritating sounds I have heard in all of my life...you want some good house music...altho i haven't bee in over a decade...go to the Paradox. Matter of fact I got tons of the stuff on my PC...I would gladly send you some if interested...


2. In short, that i why I have dismissed teaching Ebonics...it was a very poor excuse of not teaching kids proper grammar by dumbing them down...

1. Well, there are other baltimore folk who beg to differ on whether it's house or club music. But we agree that it's crappy. I don't want any of that stuff sent to me unless it's go-go. But, thanks.

2. I agree that Ebonics shouldn't be taught. It should be received fairly and used to reach certain students and teach them on an equal playing field. Similar to how ESL shouldn't be taught but students who speak Spanish should be translated and taught how to learn in, and speak, English.

[RU OX Alum]

y'all are wicked lame

this thread hella drags

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

y'all are wicked lame

this thread hella drags

Do you drink your wahtah from a bubblah?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Do you drink your wahtah from a bubblah?

hahaha

nawh, it's wuttah from a g-lass