kappa sigma at fgcu?

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I would hope that Kappa Sigma's expansion chair/committee looked at more than "OMG, this group of students that we don't know won't get the chance to be Greek!" when making the decision to expand to FGCU.

Certainly, that was just the short answer. It wasnt a matter of if they could be greek or not, they could have joined other fraternities already established on campus; but they wanted Kappa Sigma.

Beyond that, Kappa Sigma requires a lengthy checklist be completed prior to being able to become a fully chartered chapter. Whether or not they have the same requirments, I'm sure this type of list is not uncommon in the greek system.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Certainly, that was just the short answer. It wasnt a matter of if they could be greek or not, they could have joined other fraternities already established on campus; but they wanted Kappa Sigma.

Beyond that, Kappa Sigma requires a lengthy checklist be completed prior to being able to become a fully chartered chapter. Whether or not they have the same requirments, I'm sure this type of list is not uncommon in the greek system.

I was being facetious, but that comment does go back to some of the previous posts. It's hard to believe that KS is THAT hard-pressed for chapters that they couldn't follow the University's guidelines and wait.

And in my organization, having the university's approval is one item on the checklist. If the school is against expansion, we move on. If they tell us to wait, we will wait.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I was being facetious, but that comment does go back to some of the previous posts. It's hard to believe that KS is THAT hard-pressed for chapters that they couldn't follow the University's guidelines and wait.

And in my organization, having the university's approval is one item on the checklist. If the school is against expansion, we move on. If they tell us to wait, we will wait.

You're right in thinking that Kappa Sigma is not that hard pressed for chapters. But, one of our earlier members once gave a speech that every Kappa Sigma learns, ends with "May we not rest contentedly until the Star and Crescent is the pride of every college and university in the land!"

This is something we still believe today.

In terms of waiting for university approval, that goes back to our original argument; we do not feel that the university has the grounds to prevent any lawful and peaceful organization from forming.

Now we push for the same rights, currently being given to those other fraternities on campus.

FGCU is a very young school, with an IFC that has only formed within the last few years. As a result, not every fraternity had to be "recognized" in order to form as a student organization; as there was no IFC to recognize them. With everything new, there are always things to be changed, as the initial rules or policies adapted from other areas, may not be right in the long term for that particular institution.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

You're right in thinking that Kappa Sigma is not that hard pressed for chapters. But, one of our earlier members once gave a speech that every Kappa Sigma learns, ends with "May we not rest contentedly until the Star and Crescent is the pride of every college and university in the land!"

This is something we still believe today.

In terms of waiting for university approval, that goes back to our original argument; we do not feel that the university has the grounds to prevent any lawful and peaceful organization from forming.

Now we push for the same rights, currently being given to those other fraternities on campus.

FGCU is a very young school, with an IFC that has only formed within the last few years. As a result, not every fraternity had to be "recognized" in order to form as a student organization; as there was no IFC to recognize them. With everything new, there are always things to be changed, as the initial rules or policies adapted from other areas, may not be right in the long term for that particular institution.

I think the bolded is the point of many of the dissenters.

Yeah, (general) you may think it sucks that these rules are in place, but that doesn't make them unconstitutional (as KSigAdvisor has stated several times). It's just one of those things that we as Greeks have to deal with. If (general) we REALLY want to get on FGCU's campus, we're simply going to have to follow the rules.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

If (general) we REALLY want to get on FGCU's campus, we're simply going to have to follow the rules.

Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

I meant that the group needs to accept the univeristy's rule (getting IFC approval before being approved as a GLO) instead of bashing FGCU and claiming that it's infringing on students' civil liberties.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I meant that the group needs to accept the univeristy's rule (getting IFC approval before being approved as a GLO) instead of bashing FGCU and claiming that it's infringing on students' civil liberties.

And on that point, is where we're both going to disagree.

You can certainly follow what is written; but just because a policy is "accepted" doesnt make it right. A fraternity shouldnt have to ask permission from another fraternity (or set of fraternities) in order to form on a campus. Should they have to follow school rules, supply all the written documentation and not interfere with the education of any other student? Absolutely. But, the "rules" currently in place are by a student organization for that student organization to follow, not by the school itself. That particular organization does have the right to include/exclude membership from the organization itself; but not from campus.

I also havent seen a written rule, that says a fraternity at FGCU must be part of the IFC. This has only been explained orally; never in writing. (Granted, it's possible I just havent found the FGCU policy)

I repeat, IFC can pick and chose who it wants to be part of the IFC. But, IFC does not have the right to determine whether a student group can be on campus. That is the very reason the RSO application form has fraternity/sorority listed as an option; despite the questions of single-sex status.

That is essentially our stance on the matter.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

Is there a link to the RSO bylaws, Rambler?

I remember glancing at this, but didn't really read it. The fact that KS wasn't even offered provisional membership makes me think that there are other things that occurred that haven't been brought up here.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

VandalSquirrel - There is nothing in the guidelines that discusses how a colony should be formed. Simply that if the IFC itself wishes to expand to a new chapter; how a new chapter would be recognized. There is a penalty section, that should a chapter initiate members without being recognized it will not be formally recognized for 3-5 years (depending on the situation).

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Is there a link to the RSO bylaws, Rambler?

I remember glancing at this, but didn't really read it. The fact that KS wasn't even offered provisional membership makes me think that there are other things that occurred that haven't been brought up here.

If there are RSO bylaws, I dont see them listed on the Student Involvement page. http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Stud...ement/rso.html

[KSigAdvisor]

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

FLOUNCE!!!

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion.

Says the source of most of the nasty comments.

[stufield]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

KSigAdvisor:

As someone who has been critical of some of your previous posts, I must compliment you on this one. Nobody has, or could have, put it any better.

Your point that fraternities, as student organizations, should not be treated any differently than other student groups should be well taken by other readers of this thread, as should your analogy that just because a country chooses not to be member of the United Nations does not mean that it should cease advocating and supporting certain principles that the United Nations espouses and advances. My only question would be whether or not nonfraternal student groups at FGCU require any form of permission from the FGCU administration before they can be established and gain formal/official recognition from the school. If they do, then fraternities are not being treated any differently than other school groups, as KSigAdvisor suggests they are.

Readers of this thread may be interested to know that Kappa Sigma has not always had a policy of establishing or recognizing colonies at certain schools notwithstanding the fact that those colonies have not obtained formal recognition from their host schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs. This policy is a relatively recent one, no more than five or six years old. I know of a number of schools over 20 or so years prior to that at which Kappa Sigma had very strong interest groups ... large numbers, very diverse individuals, strong academics, high visibility through membership/participation in a variety of other campus groups, everything a fraternity could want from an interest group ... but that the Fraternity made painful decisions not to recognize because those groups had not obtained and would not be receiving formal recognition from their host schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs ... either a school was not open for expansion at the time, or some other fraternity was selected to come on campus rather than Kappa Sigma. I don't pretend to know the specific circumstances that led to the change in policy. I do know that probably the first instance of it coming into practice was at Emory University, a prominent private university located in Atlanta, at which Kappa Sigma had a long-dormant active chapter, was conspicuous by its absence from Emory's large and healthy Greek system, and had been wanting to return for years. A strong interest group arose. But the Emory administration had a no-expansion policy at the time; it may also have advised Kappa Sigma that when the administration decided to open its fraternity to further expansion, it would not necessarily invite Kappa Sigma. In any case, the interest group decided to proceed anyway, and the fraternity supported it and awarded it colony status. The colony faced substantial opposition from both the Emory administration and the Emory IFC. But the colony pressed on and became such a positive force on the campus that the administration and the IFC could no longer ignore it or hope that it would eventually wither away without formal recognition. So that recognition was ultimately awarded, and the chapter (Alpha) has continued to this day as a strong member of the Emory fraternity system. So perhaps the Emory experience was the start of the policy. In any case, that same story has repeated itself with little or minor variation at several other campuses since then. Kappa Sigma presently has four or five active chapters and about the same number of colonies at schools where it still has not gained/earned formal recognition.

But Kappa Sigma has also decided not to recognize strong interest groups at other schools that were not prepared at the time to grant formal recognition to those groups. Often, those schools are private institutions rather than public ones; the constitutional arguments/considerations are much different at private colleges and universities than at public institutions. Each situation is considered by the powers that be in the Fraternity on an individual basis as it arises, and the decision to recognize or not recognize a particular interest group is then taken. Of course, not all members agree with every decision; some members would like to have seen the fraternity recognize certain groups that it decided not to recognize; other members, or perhaps the same members looking at a different situation, wish the Fraternity had not recognized certain groups that it did recognize ... exactly what happens in virtually every organization, large and small, fraternal and otherwise.

Several other fraternities, including Sigma Chi and Teke, also have chapters and colonies at schools where those groups lack formal school recognition. So the FGCU Kappa Sig colony carrying on without formal school recognition, perhaps even in the face of active opposition, is by no means a unique event either with regard to just Kappa Sigma or in the larger interfraternal world. From what I can glean from several postings on this thread, the colony members are perfectly aware of their situation and are willing to press on, and the colony evidently is at least holding its own at FGCU, if not thriving. The Fraternity is continuing to support it, and will charter it as an active chapter this coming weekend, if I have the date correct. Time well tell whether or not that chapter can continue to survive and prosper as an unrecognized entity at FGCU, or whether, as at Emory and several other schools, the administration and the IFC will ultimately have the good sense to recognize that the chapter is there to stay, is a positive force on campus, and should be accorded recognition.