Hazing Works!

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

James, you're being awfully nasty for someone who's trying to incite an intelligent discussion.

[James]

Definition of Hazing.

I think we have to use the PC version because its the one that will get us in trouble if we violate it.

But you know what? Not everything on the list will get you in trouble ,even if the "authorities" know you are doing it.

They will get you in trouble if someone complains about them, someone gets hurt or some claims damages.

[Glitter650]

I believe that hazing works to tighten a class, but not necessarily to find those that will make the best brothers or sisters. When I decided to go greek, I first pledged a local. Which hazed. (not anything physically dangerous) The things I was asked to do weren't TOO horrible, but it was definitely hazing and if my NPC org. did this we'd get our chater pulled FAST. But the only thing it did was cause the us..(the pledges) to complain about how horrible this was and how it was supposed to be fun. We would sit around at our study sessions making fun of our pledge mom and comiserating about the crap we were supposed to memorize. This is simple social psychology, people who go through a traumatic event together tend to bond.
However, the new member period should be, yes to bond within your class, but also to bond with the sisterhood /brotherhood and learn what being a brother/sister is all about. In my previous experience hazing didn't work to accomplish this. We were kept VERY seperate and were reminded all the time that we were NOT part of the group. I heard more than one sister say "pledging is hard to weed out the weak, or to see who will make a good sister" Well none of the stuff we had to do had ANYTHING to do with what you would have to do as a sister. I don't think making sure that you can memorize EVERY SINGLE person who has EVER been initiated into BOTH chapters of the sorority has ANYTHING to do with how you will handle the responsibility of taking on an office, or how carrying around a clock because you were late to a meeting will show how you will be there for a sister if she needs a ride at 3 in the morningor whatever the case maybe.
I think new member programs can be built around the fact since hazing does tend to bond people by giving them common (bad) experiences, maybe new member programs should think about bonding through fun events. I know our red rose or "I" week has a lot of bonding that takes place, but none of it is because of hazing, we bond because we are having fun together. I don't know if any of that made any sense or if I was just rambling... but hopefully you all can kinda make sense of what I wanted to say.

[MenaceKiller]

Originally posted by James
Definition of Hazing.
But you know what? Not everything on the list will get you in trouble ,even if the "authorities" know you are doing it.

They will get you in trouble if someone complains about them, someone gets hurt or some claims damages.

Very true, hazing isn't "hazing" until you're caught or someone prosecutes.

===================

When I'm stating there are events that may have positive outcomes from hazing, I'm speaking from viewpoint that there are members/pledges who are:

1) not able to recognize a truly dangerous event
2) see the hazing a simply traditional, and that everyone goes through it to prove your worth
3) shrug it off easily or with difficulty, but in the end, they DO shrug it off and accept the event as having happened

Let's take an extreme example of hazing. A fraternity drops several pledges out in the middle of nowhere, naked, and tells them to find their way home. That's extreme, in my opinion.

However, certain U.S. military divisions do similar rituals in order to ascertain your "soldierness" -- you get the standard battlefield rucksack, are told you need to get to this latitude and longitude by this time, and then dropped off in the jungle by helicopter. Hazing? No, that's what teaches you to rely upon your squadmates and you are challenged to use your wits and limited resources.

What could fraternities do to take that example from the military? Not nakedness, that's for sure, but challenging them to use whatever important material that was taught to them during training/pledge period would be an excellent reinforcement tactic. I've seen some organizations use directons that are solely written in Greek; others, they taught the pledges survival skills as a workshop at retreats. others show the pledges their values and virtues by having an unknown alumni nearby that the pledges have to ask for help from -- if they never bothered to ask for help, they would have been totally stranded.

Are those things, above, considered hazing, if the pledges are given the same chance to succeed as a member would in that situation?

[texas*princess]

I have to somewhat agree with what Glitter said about hazing.

Your pledgeship/new member period should be fun or at least an enjoyable time and that should be why you bonded - because you had fun together; NOT because you were all scared and terrifed together over the things you were being asked to do; NOT because you were all upset over what the active members said to you and your new member class...

that's just my opinion anyway.

[James]

Am not!

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
James, you're being awfully nasty for someone who's trying to incite an intelligent discussion.

[MenaceKiller]

Originally posted by texas*princess
Your pledgeship/new member period should be fun or at least an enjoyable time and that should be why you bonded - because you had fun together; NOT because you were all scared and terrifed together over the things you were being asked to do; NOT because you were all upset over what the active members said to you and your new member class...

Sure, it would be nice to have an enjoyable pledge period, or else you wouldn't be joining for the right reasons.

However, as in life, not EVERY MOMENT is enjoyable, right?

Some people join because they think the organization will improve them -- what if hazing, in its own way, allows one to have better insight into how the organization came to be, and how it continues to survive?

[kappaloo]

Here's a thought,

If Hazing really taught respect of Elders, then when no hazing rules were brought down - why do some who had be hazed go against it?

Seems like hazing didn't really teach them to respect the Elder's decisions then...

In many cases, Hazing does reach the goals it obtains. However, it's comes to the idea of whether the ends justify the means? For many groups, hazing goes against the values and ethics of a group. Why would a group go against its own morals?

Hazing can be harmful and damaging to a person, and for that reason alone, it should not be allowed. Why any one would ever WANT to harm a person is BEYOND me.

And what is the PC meaning of hazing? What would you consider a more reasonable definition? Let's get specific.

[Kevin]

Hazing occurs mostly due to tradition. It only takes 4 years to start a new tradition.

Many HQ's are coming up with non-hazing alternatives -- national chapter programming to help chapters to break with the old. I actually enjoy the fact that we have a great deal in common with Sigma Nu chapters all over the country as a result of our national LEAD program.

It's true... many chapters are still deep-rooted in tradition.. they're no less my brothers but I think that hazing really holds back the real potential of a group.

You should accept that there are viable alternatives to hazing. Some specific examples..

To build teamwork have your new members participate in a ropes course program. There are certainly challenging situations here but they are generally much more supportive environments. I don't recognize the need to tear a man down before you can build him up.

To help understand the value of hard work: require the new member group to hold their own fund raisers for their own initiation costs.. Have them ***COORDINATE*** a party -- by this I mean administrative, assign duties to initiated members. Have them take charge (while being looked over) of homecoming and/or Greek Week.

I guarantee you.. if you execute the above two items as well as following national programming while providing opportunities for new members to develop as leaders and as followers you will do well.

Originally posted by James
Hendrixski and Menacekiller,

Are you saying that pledge programs should be a little more individualized?

Because some members coming in will have most/all the desirable traits to begin with? I am thinking someone who both likes and tends be very loyal and productive in groups.

For those people any kind of long drawn out program would actually be counterproductive because it might change them or discourage them?

Individualized by chapter and pledge class. In my chapter for example hazing would be counter productive due to our size, and the overall size of greek population on our campus. And it would be wrong to haze some pledges, not others. They'd feel like the pledgemaster had favorites.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by MenaceKiller

However, as in life, not EVERY MOMENT is enjoyable, right?

Some people join because they think the organization will improve them -- what if hazing, in its own way, allows one to have better insight into how the organization came to be, and how it continues to survive?

That's an interesting thought.

Sure, I know many people join GLO's because they think the organization might improve them.

Many hope to gain better leadership skills, time-management skills, and things like that. How does hazing help a person achieve any of that?

Like Glitter mentioned, does carrying around a clock make you better at time-manangement? No.. it's ridiculous to think so. That is what watches and daily planners are for... there is no need to carry around a CLOCK!

[bruinaphi]

I'd like to know why you think hazing works. What does reciting the greek alphabet while holding a burning match teach someone about sisterhood, brotherhood or tradition? What does swiming blindfolded with your hands tied behind your back in the middle of the night in the ocean teach you about how to be a leader and a good member? Does the death or near death of a pledge cause a pledge class to become closer to one another? Probably, but it doesn't teach them anything about how people like to be treated, the history of our organizations or the role they play in the future of the Greek community.

Yes, there are some activities that are hazing under the definition b/c you have too go a little to far in what you prohibit to prevent people getting around the rules, but hazing is illegal for a reason. There are a lot of organizations in our community that have built up very successful new member programs that do not include hazing and are still turning out members who care about their organizations, know their history and want to play a role in their future.

Edited to fix some of my horrible spelling errors.

[FuzzieAlum]

I don't think the military is a very valid comparison. Yes, both GLOs and the military want tight, cohesive groups. But a GLO is not about life and death like the military is! The military may train you by dropping you in the middle of nowhere. That really could happen in actual service. I sure hope that doesn't actually happen in the course of a GLO's regular activities, though. In a GLO, you really shouldn't be killing your enemy, defending your own life, or dodging literal bullets.

Hazing is ONE of MANY ways to build loyalty. It's not the only. Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? I suppose we could skip rush and just kidnap the girls we want and make them suffer until they come around to our way of thinking. Sure would save money, since formal rush is expensive! And we wouldn't have to worry about girls turning us down! However, I really doubt anyone would seriously argue we should do things this way.

One question I have is, how much loyalty is enough? GLO membership is for life, but not to the death. A GLO member should be more loyal than a chess club member, but he doesn't need the loyalty of a super-secret government spy. That's why I think hazing is unnecessary; it's an unpleasant means to an end that is superfluous in this case.

What a GLO needs to instill in new members is a real sense of group identity - and an appreciation of the desirability of continued membership in that group. You have been chosen to be a Mu Mu; not everybody can be a Mu Mu; Mu Mu is superior to Nu Nu because we are prettier/smarter/more fun/less airheady/more philanthropic/less fake/more exclusive/better for networking/whatever. Hazing teaches you the difficulty of membership, but not why it is desirable, which is why it loses more members along the way: "All of this for a GLO? Forget it!" When a new member understands how membership in her GLO benefits her, she has an incentive to live up to her responsibilities as a member, be it showing up at a mixer or taking a drunk sister home.

And as to how to do that, thousands of chapters across the country manage it all the time. It's not like no one has ever done it before, so I don't see it as a great mystery.

[DeltAlum]

Hazing may work in some cases and not in others.

Or it may work in all cases. Or none.

It may be dangerous or it may not.

It may make people better members/actives or may cause them to depledge.

It may work for the military and athletics, and not other organizations.

I really don't know if it works or why.

I do know it's illegal.

So, if you want to keep your charter, everything except the final sentence above really doesn't matter, does it?

[33girl]

Maybe hazing is illegal, but the definition of hazing is way too broad for it to be taken seriously.

Take other crimes like murder, theft, fraud. You have a set of what each crime entails that pretty much everyone agrees on. For instance, premeditated murder- you plan to kill someone, you carry out those actions, and they are dead. That's premeditated murder. (Don't start on first, second, third degree etc) The average Joe can be selected for a jury and understand that.

Now you get to the definition of hazing. Some people feel it only includes physical abuse. Some people feel it includes calling someone a pledge or asking them to interview active members. Some are in the middle. I don't think we are ever going to have an effective Greek system OVERALL until we come to a clear definition (not the Granny's-nightshirt-covers-everything definition of the FIPG) of what hazing really IS. I know that there are alums (myself included) who are very offended when activities they participated in willingly and joyfully are labeled hazing.