Hazing Works!

[James]

Look people, Hazing works. IF you think otherwise you are being more PC than realistic.

The question is this:

Why does hazing work?

Any answers?

[Kevin]

If it works, what does it work to do? And is it the best way of accomplishing something?

I can say 100% accurately that our candidate class is tight. The ones that worked hard and did what was asked of them regard those that did not do so as outsiders. We do have some newly established traditions in the candidate period but we were very careful to build them around the definition of hazing. If you asked our candidate class if they ere hazed they were not.

Now why does it work? Any group of people that experience trauma together are going to feel closer to eachother. Look at Vietnam vets or veterans of any war. They experience a similar comraderie.

The question is -- is it ethically right to force someone to do certain things? For Sigma Nu I don't thnk it has anything to do with what we stand for.. Love, Honor, Truth. Hazing is none of these things.

[James]

Actually that is not the question.

The question is what are the mechanics that make hazing work.

The mechanics that make create extreme primary group loyalty.

And from there we go to what types of beneficial experiences can promote the same bonds.

And from there we go to how to actually organize such activities.

And from there we go to how to incorporate those activites into a program.

And from there we go to how to we develop an evaluation system to judge the effectiveness of our program.

And from there we go to what resources are available for follow-ups.

(this is a general observation)

I wish everyone could think a little more outside the box and be a little more intellegent and analytical!

*sigh*

[Pi Kapp 142]

I can say that hazing to build unity in a associate member class works great..... at the cost of creating division and class rivalries in the entire chapter. Of course one is going to be very close and become a tight nit group if you are all going throuhg the same thing together. The trick is to get the class to feel part of the chapter as a whole. Why make them feel seperate and like they have to "earn" brotherhood, when by sheer fact that they come out and help the chapter is the cost of brotherhood. Greeks are being assaulted on all sides, by various people who do not see the benefit of Fraternities and Sororities. We need all the help we can get, so why do we make it harder to join, and stay in, our respective groups.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by James
Actually that is not the question.


I wish everyone could think a little more outside the box and be a little more intellegent and analytical!

*sigh*

I don't think your comments here are appropriate. If you have a problem with my argument, fine attack that. Calling what I said unitelligent and not analytical seems to be exactly that.

I simply believe that YES hazing can work. It can have some horrible consequences when taken too far and if you get caught you lose your charter or close to it.

So tell me how that is good for an organization or brotherhood?

[James]

That was a very nice thing to say actually, but also very rhetorical and taught us nothing.

Hazing is used successfully by sports teams and military units, and they don't have a problem with artificial class divisions.

So since you didn't post in a proactive manner are you telling us that hazing works, but its just not done correctly.

Come on kids, why does hazing work and how can we duplicate it successfully?

Originally posted by Pi Kapp 142
I can say that hazing to build unity in a associate member class works great..... at the cost of creating division and class rivalries in the entire chapter. Of course one is going to be very close and become a tight nit group if you are all going throuhg the same thing together. The trick is to get the class to feel part of the chapter as a whole. Why make them feel seperate and like they have to "earn" brotherhood, when by sheer fact that they come out and help the chapter is the cost of brotherhood. Greeks are being assaulted on all sides, by various people who do not see the benefit of Fraternities and Sororities. We need all the help we can get, so why do we make it harder to join, and stay in, our respective groups.

[James]

Ok you guys are killing me LOL!

Review my response earlier where I say that my final statement was a general observation.

Good now apologize for getting taking my comments far out of context.

Now let me try this again!


My problems with your comments, directly, is that you seem to get caught up with the WORD hazing. Like religion, or rape, or racism, its a buzz word.

I am trying for the nTH time to get an intellegent dialouge about it.

Now, what we are talking about, or trying to, is that activities tradtionally thought as hazing also seem to inspire a great deal of primary group loyalty which is what we want out of our new member classes. Right?

So, and let me state this yet again, what similar activities can we do that take the place of traditional hazing activites BUT still inspire the same primary group loyalty.

And then how can we teach those activities to our chapters.

AND how can we weave these activites into a program.

AND how can we set up a system that evaluates and modifies this system!

There.

If someone is not familiar with what I mean about Primary Group Loyalty please ask.

Good now I am going to go watch some PORN about cheerleaders .

'Night .


And please be specific.

Originally posted by ktsnake


I don't think your comments here are appropriate. If you have a problem with my argument, fine attack that. Calling what I said unitelligent and not analytical seems to be exactly that.

I simply believe that YES hazing can work. It can have some horrible consequences when taken too far and if you get caught you lose your charter or close to it.

So tell me how that is good for an organization or brotherhood?

[33girl]

James,

Do you mean real hazing, or the PC definition of hazing?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by James
Ok you guys are killing me LOL!

Review my response earlier where I say that my final statement was a general observation.

Good now apologize for getting taking my comments far out of context.

Now let me try this again!


My problems with your comments, directly, is that you seem to get caught up with the WORD hazing. Like religion, or rape, or racism, its a buzz word.

I am trying for the nTH time to get an intellegent dialouge about it.

Now, what we are talking about, or trying to, is that activities tradtionally thought as hazing also seem to inspire a great deal of primary group loyalty which is what we want out of our new member classes. Right?

So, and let me state this yet again, what similar activities can we do that take the place of traditional hazing activites BUT still inspire the same primary group loyalty.

And then how can we teach those activities to our chapters.

AND how can we weave these activites into a program.

AND how can we set up a system that evaluates and modifies this system!

There.

If someone is not familiar with what I mean about Primary Group Loyalty please ask.

Good now I am going to go watch some PORN about cheerleaders .

'Night .


And please be specific.

It's difficult to think that I was taking your post out of context when I was the only reply to which you could respond. Again I ask that we deal strictly with arguments and not argue about my intelligence. You can start another thread on that if you'd like.

As for hazing.. First before we can intelligently discuss something we might want to try and agree on a common definition. I'm sensing some sort of disconnect here. So please define what you would say hazing is and provide some specific examples if you could.

And yes, hazing does strike a nerve with many folks. They don't know why. For me it was a personal choice.. I wouldn't be going very far out on a limb if I said that ALL other fraternities at the time I joined the Sigma Nu colony were hazing. I joined because I had no wish to go through that. I felt it was beneath me and still do.

Anyhow... to address your question many national organizations have come up with excellent national programming. I believe Sig Ep has its "Balanced Man". Sigma Nu developed the LEAD program (stands for Leadership, Ethics, Achievement and Development). Our chapter uses ropes courses, lets the candidate class LEAD the brothers in running Greek Week and Homecoming. They run a social event, as well as their own fund raisers for their initiation fees.

Our Candidate Program is finished with what we call "Hell No Week".. (as opposed to Hell Week). Basically it's a week in which the Candidates and Initiates do things together like go out to comedy clubs, play capture the flag, hang out and parody other fraternity's hazing traditions. Our Candidates are very tight and since we're always close with them and their activities they are easily assimilated into the chapter.

Hazing has mixed results in the greek system. First we need to define hazing. I don't for one second buy that pussy-ass definition of hazing given to us these days that it's "Forcing anyone to do anything they are not willing to do. Hazing in the sense of the word most people think of it as is bufoonary such as forcing pledges to drink themselves retarded, or to make them do nude arobics. Anyone may agree that these forms of hazing are the extreme and counter-pruductive.

I am definately a proponent of the theory that some people NEED to be hazed; It can instill respect for their superiors in them, and/or make them understand they are being punished for something they did wrong. Some people just need a beeting that their parents were too ashamed to give them.

Some people already join with these qualities in an extent that is satisfactory or superior to what is required. Hazing them is a moot point and can actually draw them away from the system.

I'm ranting. So to post a final thought:
I think Hazing that is a tradition in houses can produce the desired results because the harmful practices have been weeded out. New chapters should be wary of starting a hazing procedure.


PS
No flaming!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by hendrixski
...I am definately a proponent of the theory that some people NEED to be hazed; It can instill respect for their superiors in them, and/or make them understand they are being punished for something they did wrong. Some people just need a beeting that their parents were too ashamed to give them...

I see where you are going with this. But I'm wondering why you or any organization would want people as members if you feel they are in need of a beating? Sure I meet people everyday that I think are obnoxious, rude, everything that I would NOT want as a brother or sister, and maybe I do feel like giving them a beating, but to me that just reiterates the fact that they would not make good members of my organization so why waste any time on them at all?

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi



I'm wondering why you or any organization would want people as members if you feel they are in need of a beating?

I agree wholeheartedly. My housedoes not haze. We also do not admit thosekidns of people. So it goes hand in hand. I was proposing this in defense of the houses that do, of which I know many, I have no beef with them.

I regress. One of the houses here beat the hell out of one of its pledges and left them in a football field for campus safety to find, they got their charter pulled and are trying to recharter. I will never vote for expansion if it means they get in. That wasclearly going too far!

[MenaceKiller]

Hazing works -- but not always!

The aspect of hazing that works is similar to the way that coal becomes diamond -- pressure, constant pressure, to bind the carbon atoms (in hazing, the individual pledges) tighter together, and force the impurities out (in hazing, the impurities are those who "can't cut it", or are the undesireable qualities of members that need to be changed).

What kind of pressure is used to change raw pledges (coal) into diamonds (shining new members)? Making them believe that once you get through a certain event (alive, that is), you will better understand the organization's ideal, goals, and motivations. The pressure is unyielding and concentrated, as all members are expected to support each other, and those who are not supported usually break away from the pledge group.

The behavior of the pledge class is also under pressure when hazing. If a PNM is telling secrets to outside strangers, pressure from within the organization will induce a negative reinforcing reaction from the PNM (i.e., pain from speaking, punishment when a secret is proven, etc.). Negative reinforcement, however, can cause those members to either lash out back at the organization (quitting), or being forced into submission. Those who are forced into submission are at a high risk of reprisal later (re-using the same hazing tactics on future generations).

The members who both had behaviors desired by the organization as well as having the strong bonds with each pledge class member should not undergo hazing, as modifying their behavior would decrease their current effectiveness (i.e., why was I hazed, when they want me just the way I am now?)

[James]

Hendrixski and Menacekiller,

Are you saying that pledge programs should be a little more individualized?

Because some members coming in will have most/all the desirable traits to begin with? I am thinking someone who both likes and tends be very loyal and productive in groups.

For those people any kind of long drawn out program would actually be counterproductive because it might change them or discourage them?

[texas*princess]

Not sure if this will come out right, but ...

I think team-building activities can be great for pledge/new member classes and also for the entire chapter as a whole. By team-building activities I mean activities that generate positive feelings towards each other and the organization you are wanting to be a part of (or already are if you are an active member)

However, I feel that hazing is just plain wrong. What kind of hazing activites are we supposed to be talking about here (when you say hazing works)? When I hear "hazing" I automatically think of terrible things like yelling at the new members, making them do things they do not wish to participate in. When hazing like this occurs, sometimes the new members do not fully understand what they are going through and may believe it to be the "right thing to do" which causes a chain reaction because they will do it to the next new member class.. and so on and so on..