Civil War Statues?

[1964Alum]

No, their roles in the history and development of our country was very different from that of Confederates who withdrew from and fought against our nation in order to preserve the institution of slavery.

But I do agree that we need to understand the role of slavery in the formation of our country. And that of White Supremacy. For that matter, only white male land owners were originally permitted to vote. Our founding fathers were also flawed human beings.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

I've hesitated to jump into this but will despite my reservations.

This Tar Heel (though with some old Virginia roots thrown in) appreciates very much that you've jumped in. Thank you.

Admittedly, relatively few people have posted about this topic, so it's certainly not a representative sampling, but I find it interesting that the Southerners¹ who've weighed in have, I think, been uniform in saying that the statues were primarily erected in order to reinforce White Supremacy and no longer have a place in the public squares of our communities, while those who have talked about things like erasing history, honoring the dead or where to draw lines have been from outside the states of the Confederacy. FWIW.


¹ Meaning here people from states that seceded to join the Confederacy. (Though now that I think about it, and without going back and looking through the thread, that may just be you and me. There are others who have posted with family roots in the South.)

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

No, their roles in the history and development of our country was very different from that of Confederates who withdrew from and fought against our nation in order to preserve the institution of slavery.

This. There's a big difference between honoring people specifically because they fought to preserve slavery (and preserving monuments built to reinforce and perpetuate racial division) and honoring people who were instrumental in founding or leading this country despite being slave owners.

But I do agree that we need to understand the role of slavery in the formation of our country. And that of White Supremacy. For that matter, only white male land owners were originally permitted to vote. Our founding fathers were also flawed human beings.

Yes. Monticello, for example, does a good job of exploring the history of Jefferson and his slaves.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

This Tar Heel (though with some old Virginia roots thrown in) appreciates very much that you've jumped in. Thank you.

Admittedly, relatively few people have posted about this topic, so it's certainly not a representative sampling, but I find it interesting that the Southerners¹ who've weighed in have, I think, been uniform in saying that the statues were primarily erected in order to reinforce White Supremacy and no longer have a place in the public squares of our communities, while those who have talked about things like erasing history, honoring the dead or where to draw lines have been from outside the states of the Confederacy. FWIW.


¹ Meaning here people from states that seceded to join the Confederacy. (Though now that I think about it, and without going back and looking through the thread, that may just be you and me. There are others who have posted with family roots in the South.)

I think there may be more, who are either conflicted or simply not speaking up. I have Southern roots, but I have yet to be able to prove that any of my ancestors owned slaves. Sadly, there is one line which may have done so, but I'm still working on that proof. It's not as if I can change the fact, either way.

Yes. Monticello, for example, does a good job of exploring the history of Jefferson and his slaves.

As do both Mount Vernon and Colonial Wiliamsburg. I can only imagine that the trend will continue throughout other antebellum mansions or sites.

[ComradesTrue]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Admittedly, relatively few people have posted about this topic, so it's certainly not a representative sampling, but I find it interesting that the Southerners¹ who've weighed in have, I think, been uniform in saying that the statues were primarily erected in order to reinforce White Supremacy and no longer have a place in the public squares of our communities, while those who have talked about things like erasing history, honoring the dead or where to draw lines have been from outside the states of the Confederacy. FWIW.

Life long Southerner, 3 states all of which were part of the Confederacy. Descendant of slave owners, and while not plantation sized, they were owners nonetheless. Both my grandfathers routinely used the N word and exhibited overt signs of racism. Attended a white, suburban high school with "Rebels" as our mascot and the Rebel Flag as our symbol. Currently live in an area where multiple Civil War battles were fought and monuments/statues are everywhere. Was always far better at math than organizing my swirling thoughts into succinct and coherent words on paper, thus have been slow to participate in this thread. But that doesn't change how strongly I feel about this subject.

I could not agree more that the monuments and statues (as well as my high school mascot and flag) need to be permanently removed. Children who simply want to play in a park or visit the library should never have to walk by a monument of an individual who fought to keep their ancestors in chains and as property. The subtle social class message of these statues is not lost on anyone.

I also concur with the others that these were erected by white individuals during Jim Crow and the Civil Rights era to be a symbol of power classes vs oppressed classes. If we all took more time to genuinely -->listen<--- to people of color, oppressed groups, and those who are not in positions of power or majority we could learn so much. Seeing issues through the lenses of others and not simply our own life prism should be what guides decisions such as these. When white people say "but history" we just look well, white and uninformed.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ComradesTrue

When white people say "but history" we just look well, white and uninformed.

I'm putting this on a shirt.

[JonInKC]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

No, their roles in the history and development of our country was very different from that of Confederates who withdrew from and fought against our nation in order to preserve the institution of slavery.

Washington, Jefferson, et al didn't fight against slavery because they were PRO-SLAVERY. They were perfectly fine with owning slaves.
You can't spin that away.

So if we're going to be consistent in this overly binary way of classifying people as "good" or "evil", let's keep that in mind.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by JonInKC

Washington, Jefferson, et al didn't fight against slavery because they were PRO-SLAVERY. They were perfectly fine with owning slaves.

So if we're going to be consistent in this overly binary way of classifying people as "good" or "evil", let's keep that in mind.

It's probably inaccurate to describe Washington as "pro-slavery." Accepting of slavery up to a point is probably closer.

But regardless, that's still not the point. People are not being honored for being "good" or "evil." They're being honored for what they did for their state or their country. There's nothing binary about it—the salient question is "Why did we build monuments or memorials to honor this person?"

Monuments were built to honor Washington and Jefferson for the many positive things they did relative to the establishment of the country and its government, despite the fact that they owned (and in Jefferson's case, severely mistreated) slaves. The monuments to them were not built to honor their role in the preservation of slavery. And in the case of Jefferson, I would argue that the monuments to him were built to honor his vision for the country—"All men are created equal . . . ," etc.—which we now acknowledge compels recognition of the rights of all people even if Jefferson himself did not fully appreciate that.

The monuments to specific or generic Confederate soldiers were built to honor their role in a war that was about preservation of slavery, as well as to send a message about continuing white supremacy.

Apples and oranges.