Sororities to allow all female-identifying students to rush

[clemsongirl]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

^^^Isn't this a determination of biological SEX, not gender?

I'm embarrassed, I took a class on this and everything and I still goofed them up. I'll change it in the original post but leave this here for posterity.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

^^^Isn't this a determination of biological SEX, not gender?

Here's what was put to me. First, look up Lizard Man. In a nutshell, he had every inch of his body tattooed with green scales. He had his tongue surgically forked and he only eats lizard foods like insects. He says that he is definitely a lizard. Now decide:

1. Is Lizard Man a man or a lizard?
2. If you think he's a man, is this any different from someone claiming to be a different sex?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by carnation

Here's what was put to me. First, look up Lizard Man. In a nutshell, he had every inch of his body tattooed with green scales. He had his tongue surgically forked and he only eats lizard foods like insects. He says that he is definitely a lizard. Now decide:

1. Is Lizard Man a man or a lizard?
2. If you think he's a man, is this any different from someone claiming to be a different sex?

I think a better question would be what you hope to accomplish by repeatedly telling this guy he isn't a lizard if that's what makes him happy.

[carnation]

What they were saying is that if you accept that a person is a girl because he or she says they're a girl, it's only fair to accept Lizard Man as a lizard because he says he's one.

Same with the transabled folks.

[NWguy]

I live in a city that just passed an "all-gender restroom ordinance". This is very new to all us, so it provides a learning experience for everyone.

I'm wondering whether sororities - and fraternities, as well - would be ready to accept transgender women into their communities. Is it a topic that is ever discussed at chapter meetings, or something advisers discuss with chapter officers?

In order for a transgender woman to be accepted into a community - in this case a Greek community of 18-22 yo people, where the vast majority would likely identify themselves as straight - she would have to welcomed as a woman. My point is, and it's something I ran into recently, that some men in our society don't even understand what transgender is; they confuse them as drag queens, or as men "pretending" to be women. Progression requires education and awareness.

[KerriMarie]

Originally Posted by carnation

Do they have XX chromosomes?

Are you recommending genetics testing before giving out bids? Or just before initiation?

[KerriMarie]

Originally Posted by clemsongirl

For scientific clarification:

The three ways of determining biological sex are chromosomes, gonads (penis, vagina, testes, ovaries, etc) and hormone levels. Some women have levels of testosterone that fall into the acceptable range for men but still consider themselves women, such as the case of South African track athlete Caster Semenya. Others, such as women with androgen insensitivity syndrome, have male gonads, but those gonads are undescended and their bodies cannot process testosterone. These women look, for all intents and purposes, like "biological" women but are chromosomally male and to some extent gonadally as well. There are even people with extra or fewer sex chromosomes than most, but the vast majority of these people fall into one social designation of gender or the other.

We don't peek down the pants of a PNM, demand their bloodwork before offering a bid for membership or require genetic testing because a woman is a woman if she believes herself to be one and presents herself as one, not if she passes some sort of biological checklist. Sex and gender are different concepts.

Well said!

[Ag_Sis]

Hi everyone, I think this is an interesting debate so I'll just give it my two cents:

1) As to the Brown University Panhellenic unilaterally allowing female-identifying students to rush, that doesn't necessarily mean that the individual chapters themselves can or will offer membership to trans PNMs. A similar situation happens at A&M and UT Austin where Panhellenic allowed community college students who take a few classes at the 4-year college to rush. I remember there was such a big brouhaha over Panhellenic "forcing" chapters to accept Blinn TEAM/PACE students, but ultimately, it was the individual sorority's decision whether to accept or not. There was a big debate over whether it was "allowed" or not. There was a big debate over Panhellenic "forcing." But as far as I know, every single sorority at A&M this past year has accepted a Blinn TEAM member.

2) As to whether trans women are really women, I believe Clemongirl gave a much better explanation than I ever could as to the biological delineations. But there do exist women with 3 X chromosomes. As they are asymptomatic, many will not realize it, and they live normal lives as "real" women. Similarly, people with Down's Syndrome have missing chromosomes. Does that mean that they are not "real" humans and should be aborted?

3) Forgetting all of the biological talk about what constitutes a "real" woman, I would like to point out that the 7 Sisters women's colleges (Bryn Mawr, Mount Holyoke, Wellesley, Barnard, etc.) all accept transgender women (or anyone who identifies as a woman for that matter). If these "women-only" colleges can accept trans women, why not sororities? Having already been initiated, I see nothing in our ritual that demands a new member possess female sex organs or be born a female.

4) For whatever it's worth, I do actually know someone who is a trans woman who pledged (and was initiated into) a sorority. I do believe that she's told a few of her sisters (her school is more on the liberal side), but I do hope that nationals won't strip her of her membership, especially considering that she's already been initiated and gone through the rituals.

Again, just my two (four) cents.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by KerriMarie

Are you recommending genetics testing before giving out bids? Or just before initiation?

The EXACT SECOND that they sign up for recruitment!

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by carnation

What they were saying is that if you accept that a person is a girl because he or she says they're a girl, it's only fair to accept Lizard Man as a lizard because he says he's one.

Well, that's a terribly analogy because SEX is biologically determined; GENDER is a social construct.

But setting that aside, if some dude tells me that he's a lizard, then he's a lizard. IDGAF.

[KerriMarie]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Well, that's a terribly analogy because SEX is biologically determined; GENDER is a social construct.

But setting that aside, if some dude tells me that he's a lizard, then he's a lizard. IDGAF.

Right. What's it to me? No one is making me live as a lizard. You do you, lizard man!

[clemsongirl]

Originally Posted by Ag_Sis

Hi everyone, I think this is an interesting debate so I'll just give it my two cents:

1) As to the Brown University Panhellenic unilaterally allowing female-identifying students to rush, that doesn't necessarily mean that the individual chapters themselves can or will offer membership to trans PNMs. A similar situation happens at A&M and UT Austin where Panhellenic allowed community college students who take a few classes at the 4-year college to rush. I remember there was such a big brouhaha over Panhellenic "forcing" chapters to accept Blinn TEAM/PACE students, but ultimately, it was the individual sorority's decision whether to accept or not. There was a big debate over whether it was "allowed" or not. There was a big debate over Panhellenic "forcing." But as far as I know, every single sorority at A&M this past year has accepted a Blinn TEAM member.

This is a good point, too: no one is making the chapters offer bids to these girls if they choose not to. I would hope that being trans would not be the reason for not offering membership, but like with the PNM I told the story about above part of private membership selection practices is that chapters don't have to give reasons for not inviting a PNM back to their parties.

Unless this policy was adopted at Tufts or another school that requires that all PNMs be given a bid to a chapter as long as they meet basic membership requirements (are there even other schools that do this?), chapters still retain some measure of autonomy.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by carnation

The EXACT SECOND that they sign up for recruitment!

You're the one who brought up genetics, so her question seems fair (to me, anyway). I'm not sure I understand why you're being a smart-aleck about it.

[33girl]

I thought a few of the Seven Sisters schools had accepted men for a while now.

[jolene]

Where does it end? There's a woman in Denmark (I think that's where) who identifies as a cat. She hisses at dogs, etc.