Death Penalty-Change your mind yet? - Page 4

DWAlphaGam · #46 08-11-2002, 04:07 PM

ANY evidence can be tampered with, so by that logic, why even bother having investigations and presenting evidence at a trial? It all comes down to who is believable to a jury and who is not. People may not be perfect, but they're all we have to rely on in the end.

Rudey · #47 08-11-2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DWAlphaGam
ANY evidence can be tampered with, so by that logic, why even bother having investigations and presenting evidence at a trial? It all comes down to who is believable to a jury and who is not. People may not be perfect, but they're all we have to rely on in the end.

Umm you're not following "that logic". I made a statement about a punishment that is full of holes and permanent...not the evidence presented at each and every trial in this country.

-Rudey

DeeGeePee · #48 08-11-2002, 04:55 PM

I am vehemently AGAINST the death penalty. Getting rid of a ciminal is the worst punishment you can give them. They don't suffer for what they have done. They get the easy way out. I think that they need to rot in jail for the rest of they're lives without parole, and for some, only in solitary confinement. That will hurt them and punish them more than killing them. They don't suffer that way. Well some say that by dying they don't get to do anything they lose out on seeing their family, etc. But its worse if you are alive know that you COULD have been at you kids birth, graduation, marriage etc, but knowing that you can't because you're a stupid f**k up. That is a WHOLE lot worse punishment than death.

texas*princess · #49 08-11-2002, 09:40 PM

Ok.. I guess I can understand how some people say we probably wouldn't be any better than the "mean people" if we gave them the death penalty, However I think I have a capitalistic view on it. I am a hard working American citizen and I pay taxes that support all those prisons & stuff like that. I personally don't think it's fair that citizens have to pay their hard-earned money for these guys/gals who just sit on the bum in a cell somewhere. I say fry 'em as soon as possible.. I realize that costs money too, but it sure beats housing them & everything else for 40+ years. ?

texas*princess · #50 08-11-2002, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeeGeePee
I am vehemently AGAINST the death penalty. Getting rid of a ciminal is the worst punishment you can give them. They don't suffer for what they have done. They get the easy way out. I think that they need to rot in jail for the rest of they're lives without parole, and for some, only in solitary confinement. That will hurt them and punish them more than killing them. They don't suffer that way. Well some say that by dying they don't get to do anything they lose out on seeing their family, etc. But its worse if you are alive know that you COULD have been at you kids birth, graduation, marriage etc, but knowing that you can't because you're a stupid f**k up. That is a WHOLE lot worse punishment than death.

Sad truth is that sometimes those people don't live in regret when they have done something that bad.. they just go with the motions until they get out on parole, or rot in jail. Think of the over-whelming capacity prisions will have if EVERYONE sits there for the rest of their lives? More and more prisions will have to be built to house them.

Rudey · #51 08-11-2002, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by texas*princess

Sad truth is that sometimes those people don't live in regret when they have done something that bad.. they just go with the motions until they get out on parole, or rot in jail. Think of the over-whelming capacity prisions will have if EVERYONE sits there for the rest of their lives? More and more prisions will have to be built to house them.

Wow...such a powerful comment you made. It's as if you have extensive experience dealing with inmates that you know they "just go with the motions".

And for your information, prisons provide the state and private enterprises a cheap labor force (i.e. the Prison Blues clothing company and many many more companies).

-Rudey

Dionysus · #52 08-11-2002, 11:50 PM

Well, my opinion on the use death penalty varies from case to case, HOWEVER I think they should be kept alive long enough to "examine their heads", in other words, for research. Many killers, especially serial killers, share similar histories
and backgrounds. For example, a history of setting fires, abusing animals, and bed-wetting (after age 10) is a "trinity" that are found in most killers.

texas*princess · #53 08-12-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey

Wow...such a powerful comment you made. It's as if you have extensive experience dealing with inmates that you know they "just go with the motions".

And for your information, prisons provide the state and private enterprises a cheap labor force (i.e. the Prison Blues clothing company and many many more companies).

-Rudey

Just FYI no i don't have "extensive experience in dealing with inmates", but it's human nature... some people feel remorse .. some don't.. maybe it's a psychological thing, or an emotional thing, but it's life. All people don't have the same personality, so while one person may later regret what he/she did to put themself in prison, another person may not.

And thanks for the info, but I am well aware that prisons do provide cheap labor, but really think of everything else they do there.. some prison imates may be eating better than other citizens in this country. Some prison imates get higher education as "rehabilitation" while some people can't even dream about going to college due to financial reasons and can't get assistance.

Rudey · #54 08-12-2002, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by texas*princess

Just FYI no i don't have "extensive experience in dealing with inmates", but it's human nature... some people feel remorse .. some don't.. maybe it's a psychological thing, or an emotional thing, but it's life. All people don't have the same personality, so while one person may later regret what he/she did to put themself in prison, another person may not.

And thanks for the info, but I am well aware that prisons do provide cheap labor, but really think of everything else they do there.. some prison imates may be eating better than other citizens in this country. Some prison imates get higher education as "rehabilitation" while some people can't even dream about going to college due to financial reasons and can't get assistance.

Where is this all coming from? I'd like to see exactly where it says that most inmates sit on their ass and don't feel remorse. The fact is that you and I are just in college; we don't know jack shit about life let alone human nature.

Also, rehabilitation such as getting your GED and getting "higher education" are apples and oranges. How many inmates do you know that get their college educations?? And generally it's the areas in this country where people can neither afford to eat three times a day nor pursue "higher education" that provide the most crime and murder...doesn't that mean anything to you?

And in the end there is that list I provided of men in this thread that have been released and many more are being released each year because they are found to be innocent while the charges brought against them were false.

Furthermore, if people are deserving of death, what do YOU people who support the death penalty feel YOU deserve if someone is executed in a program that YOU supported? How about the prosecutors that pushed for the death sentence? How about the judge and jury that handed that sentence down? They clearly did murder an innocent man. How about executions that are clearly infractions of human rights (such as executions commited until the recent Supreme Court decision on the mentally retarded or those of children which are not banned in several states)? Texas has sure had it's share of such executions that even China would not perform (China does not execute children).

I guess for me the debate is truly solved in my first two posts to JustAMom. Perhaps they will clarify my position even more.

-Rudey
--Just another case of a powerful administrative constituency

texas*princess · #55 08-12-2002, 11:13 AM

Three words: Chill out Rudey
:rollseyes:

not everyone is innocent. some people actually do commit crimes... women/children disappearing doesn't happen just out of no where. and sorry all those people in your list were innocent, but that was all from a failed investigation. it was up to them [police/investigation team] to get the evidence and the facts straight before they try to prosecute someone.

Kevin · #56 08-12-2002, 11:19 AM

The only time I think that Death is appropriate is if the offender is a danger to others while imprisoned. Otherwise the process is far to expensive.

Justice is not about revenge.

valkyrie · #57 08-12-2002, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by texas*princess
Three words: Chill out Rudey
:rollseyes:

not everyone is innocent. some people actually do commit crimes... women/children disappearing doesn't happen just out of no where. and sorry all those people in your list were innocent, but that was all from a failed investigation. it was up to them to get the evidence and the facts straight.

I really don't want to get involved in this discussion any more because I don't think it's all that constructive at this point, but is it really necessary for you to do a

and tell Rudey to chill out just because you disagree with him?

I have a question for you: what exactly is your experience with the criminal justice system in this country? You're saying that it's up to the defendants to get the evidence and facts straight? How exactly do you propose that they do that? What resources does an innocent man in prison with no money have, exactly, to "get the evidence and the facts straight?" How is he supposed to do this when he has been beaten by police, threatened, and when the prosecution has destroyed or mishandled the evidence, or threatened witnesses, or made inappropriate comments to a jury? How is he supposed to get the evidence when it is in the custody of the state, the very people who may be destroying it in an effort to falsely convict him of a crime?

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I do. My point is just that there are serious problems in the American justice system, and the odds are so stacked against poor defendants that they often are almost powerless to do things that you would think they would be able to do, like get evidence and facts.

Corbin Dallas · #58 08-12-2002, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chioangel83
We say it's wrong to kill people. Yet our government turns around and does just that. That makes us hypocrites.

Um, it's also wrong to lock someone up in a cell in your house, but the government does that right?

Also, everyone's talking about the increase in abductions. There is an article on abcnews.com, which of course I can't find now... anyway, it said that there actually isn't an increase in this crime, simply an increase in publicity for them.

Finally, I'm not really sure how I feel about the death penalty. Part of me is for it, like many, especially for premeditated cold-blooded killings. For those that feel "an eye for an eye" is appropriate, then why should rapists be put to death? I think this line from JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is fairly fitting

Quote:

Many that live deserve death; and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Do not be too quick to deal out death in judgment.

That is why I don't know that I necessarily agree with the death penalty. If I can't give life, why should I be able to dole out death?

Rudey · #59 08-12-2002, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by texas*princess
Three words: Chill out Rudey
:rollseyes:

not everyone is innocent. some people actually do commit crimes... women/children disappearing doesn't happen just out of no where. and sorry all those people in your list were innocent, but that was all from a failed investigation. it was up to them to get the evidence and the facts straight.

Are you kidding me? While you're rolling your eyes, maybe you'll come up with something better to say...something more profound.

-Rudey
--I don't speak with the tact of Valkyrie...but then again, I also never presented a ridiculous idea that the accused should be responsible for getting their own facts straight.

newsun · #60 08-12-2002, 04:37 PM

I love to watch Law & Order. The attorneys always seem to be using the death penalty as a way to get the criminals to rat out their partners or to plead to murder with life w/o parol instead of going to trial. The old "if you tell us what happen we'll take the death penalty off the table". I wonder if this happens in real life. If it does, then let's keep that ability around for a while.

Also, I would love to see if life w/o parol is really true. If life w/o parol was REALLY true, then I would be against the death penalty because there would be a better alternative. But it seems that the news is always showing old men who get out of prison after 30 or 40 years when they are in their 60s/70s, because of reasons like good behavior and overcrowing.