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Originally Posted by honorgal
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How about when the situation is reversed? A woman initiates, the man says no, and the woman persists? Is that rape?
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Yes, absolutely it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal
I'm not questioning why she didn't physically fight back. I do question why you would encourage such a total lack of agency in college women. I find it absurd. And dangerous.
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Some would argue it is more dangerous to fight back when you can't possibly win a physical fight. When I worked cashier jobs back in the day, I was always told that if someone attempted to rob the place to hand them the money. Your life is more important than anything else. It's survival instinct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal
This is not the message that the vast majority of students matriculating to college have gotten. In fact, just the opposite, starting with curriculum in kindergarden. It's only when they get to college that women are being told they are all victims, or potential victims.
I think we've established the opposite. At least some people have strenuously said they don't think women have even the onus to object (verbally or non verbally) to a second pass. Especially not if they are tired. So what "onus" do you think is (or should be) on women, and could you be specific, please.
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I would argue that from kindergarten, we are all taught that we could be victims when we are weaker/smaller than potential attackers. Never heard of Stranger Danger training? Bank tellers are taught to give a robber the money. The general message is always "protect your life first". I was taught that in the event of a home invasion, to pretend I was asleep because a robber has less reason to kill someone who has not seen his or her face.
The other night, I started to fall asleep while watching TV in bed with the light on. I was so sleepy that I knew I needed to reach for the remote and turn the TV off and reach up to turn off the light but I was too sleepy to do it and fell asleep with the light and TV on. That's the state I'm imagining this young lady was in when her ex-boyfriend decided he was having her sex with her even though she'd said no already.
Maybe you and your husband understand each other and you sometimes say "no" when you really mean "get me in the mood and I will". IMO, it's much smarter to communicate directly and intentionally. If I said "No, not tonight" to a partner, I would mean "NO, Not tonight". No mind reading necessary. No ambiguity. No means No. When we give the message that "No means no except when it means yes", it confuses the issue for everybody.
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