Yale's Comprehensive Sexual Misconduct Guide

[LAblondeGPhi]

Warning, this is a long rant.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm conflicted on the Ms. Sendrow story and I feel sorry for both the individuals involved. After reading the quoted paragraph above, I see a pretty complex interpersonal situation that was probably filled with confusing actions and interpretations on both sides - both before and after the sexual incident.

Unfortunately, we still live in a culture where there are double-standards about male and female sexuality. Men are still seen as being on the hunt for sex, and women are still seen as needing to protect their virtue, and I think those assumptions play into too many of these gray area scenarios.

How many magazine articles have you read that told women not to "give it up" too soon when dating a new guy, or he'll lose interest in her?

How many times have you witnessed a double-standard applied to a young man and a young woman who have virtually identical sexual histories?

How many times have you heard a woman referred to as "sl**" for behavior men actively applaud each other for and congratulate? Now compare it to how frequently you actually hear any word remotely similar applied to men.

How many pop-culture depictions (or examples from your own personal life) have you seen where a woman seems to fight with herself about having sex that she wants vs. the feeling of what she "should" do?

What I mean to say with all of this is that we are a society that still buys in - enough - to the notion that men often can, or, "have to", convince a woman to have sex with him even when she wants to. We buy into this notion that women are still overcoming all of those virtue roadblocks. We buy into the idea that women need to "appear" to put up a little bit of a fight or she'll look a certain way.

On top of ALL that - in the case of Ms. Sendrow - you add the complexity of a relationship that has been freshly broken off, but with incredibly unclear boundaries. I've seen many, many relationships where people continued to hook up for months or years after breaking up with each other. It's always the same story - "in my head, I know the relationship isn't right... but we're still so attracted to each other"... blah blah. This encounter sounds awfully similar to those situations.

Whew... ok ... coming to a conclusion soon, I promise.

Now - I don't want you all to think that I'm a woman-hating, rape-defending, excuses-taking maniac. What I'm trying to say is that I do believe there are cases that are much more cut-and-dry than others - the same with ALLLL kinds of other crimes (murder or manslaughter or self defense?).

Interpersonal interactions are rarely so simple to understand or parse - and sexual/romantic interactions can be some of the most difficult to interpret. I think that underestimating the complexities of life really does a disservice to this discussion of sexual assault and violence. I think that both men and women bear plenty of responsibility around sexual assault prevention - in many, many different ways that go all the way back to how we support and treat each other's romantic relationships and actions. It goes back to how we all treat sex and judge the sexual lives of others. It goes back to how we re-enforce, or squash, potentially problematic attitudes towards sex and romance.

Basically, it's complex. I would love to buy into this "no means no" line in the sand for every circumstance, but in some cases, I just don't.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Unfortunately, we still live in a culture where there are double-standards about male and female sexuality. Men are still seen as being on the hunt for sex, and women are still seen as needing to protect their virtue

YUP. In addition to everything you mentioned about slut-shaming, these things also play into the notion that guys have to "get some" to be manly or something. There's the question of, "why would you ever want to have sex with someone who didn't ENTHUSIASTICALLY consent?" Surely it's not *that* physically pleasurable to have sex with someone who is not actively participating. But if you feel that the act is somehow tied into your masculinity, you are less likely to back off and jerk it the next morning.

Oh, which are other points that occurred to me as I was writing this: there's no reason that masturbation should be taboo, there's no reason that penis-in-vagina sex should be considered differently from other sex acts, and in general, a lot of our Neo-Victorian norms about sex lead to less good sex for everyone.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

There's the question of, "why would you ever want to have sex with someone who didn't ENTHUSIASTICALLY consent?"

People have consensual sex all the time when they do not have the same level of desire or enthusiasm. And that does not just include marital sex.

Who knew that extreme feminism would try to turn the mechanics of sex into such a soul-sucking, lawyer-driven transaction, overseen by an army of campus administrators pouring over the minute details of individual sexual encounters.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Who knew that extreme feminism would try to turn the mechanics of sex into such a soul-sucking, lawyer-driven transaction, overseen by an army of campus administrators pouring over the minute details of individual sexual encounters.

"Extreme feminism" didn't do that. Patriarchy and sexism did that and it began centuries ago once humans started the "man as dominant" thing and realized that a penis can go inside a vagina, mouth, and butthole.

But, just as with the UVA thread, when all else fails blame feminism (extreme or not). That'll teach those damn feminists.

Both women and men should be responsible and should be held accountable. That's what feminism's original purpose is before people get to different waves and interpretations--gender equality from start to finish.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Both women and men should be responsible and should be held accountable. That's what feminism's original purpose is before people get to different waves and interpretations--gender equality from start to finish.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately that's not where we are today.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately that's not where we are today.

Partly for two reasons:
1. People like you pretend feminism started this nonsense.
2. People like you equate the range of sexual victimization across billions of people with "turn the mechanics of sex into such a soul-sucking, lawyer-driven transaction, overseen by an army of campus administrators pouring over the minute details of individual sexual encounters".

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Partly for two reasons:
1. People like you pretend feminism started this nonsense.
2. People like you equate the range of sexual victimization across billions of people with "turn the mechanics of sex into such a soul-sucking, lawyer-driven transaction, overseen by an army of campus administrators pouring over the minute details of individual sexual encounters".

"People like me". LOL!