Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[Low D Flat]

I took him to be drawing an analogy with the frequency of rape and sexual assault that is the result of conspiracy between and participation of numerous fraternity members and that is explicitly or implicitly tolerated if not encouraged by the chapter as a whole.

Well, I'm looking at the whole quote, including the sentence it was responding to:

Until the behavior of fraternity brothers consistently changes, there will be no change in the public perception.

This issue, kind of like school shootings, kind of like terrorist attacks, etc., while real and while needing to be addressed is not nearly so pervasive as your above sentence would suggest. Fraternity chapters are not consistently places where women can expect to be raped. The problem is real, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway. Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It is unclear whether honorgal is ranking rape.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Well, I'm looking at the whole quote, including the sentence it was responding to:

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway. Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

I can see both of your points. However, reading what you quoted in the context of everything that honorgirl and Kevin have said in this thread—including their suggestions that the totality of instances of rape and sexual assualt may be over-reported and honorgirl's response to DBB a few posts up— as well as in other threads on this and related topics, those aren't the conclusions I come to about Kevin's analogy or about whether honorgirl has suggested that there is a category a rape or sexual assault we don't need to worry about. Even if there some "ranking" of rape going on that treats some kinds of rape as worse than others, that doesn't lead to a conclusion that some kinds rank too low to worry about. The law treats some forms of rape and sexual assault as worse than others based on things like the age of the victim, use of weapons or whether the perpetrator is aided and abetted by others.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Even if there some "ranking" of rape going on that treats some kinds of rape as worse than others, that doesn't lead to a conclusion that some kinds rank too low to worry about. .

No, of course it doesn't lead to that conclusion. But some people would rather just throw the outrage card instead of have a reasoned discussion.

It's objectively clear that the RS article describing a pre-planned seven person gang rape has lead to a understandably different reaction from a whole host of people (including, but not limited to, reactions in this thread and reactions at UVA) than the article detailing what the Swathmore co-ed went through.

We could find numerous examples of various criminal or unsavory behavior classifications where one fact pattern is more horrific than another. That's one reason why some of our laws have mitigating and aggravating circumstances.

[DrPhil]

I don't see an "outrage card" in this thread.

With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape. Many alleged victims are silenced because they didn't scream enough, didn't resist enough, aren't bruised and bloody enough, or their relationship with the alleged offender is too close to claim the person didn't deserve sex.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape.

Fair enough. I think that this is a topic, like so many others, where the individual lenses through which we view the discussion have the positive potential to add depth and a greater perspective, but also have the negative potential to inhibit understanding because we're not quite talking about the same thing, or we assume that others are starting from the same point we are. At worst, it leads to people talking past each other and to frustration that a reasonable discussion can't be had.

For me with the lens I bring to it, if I suggest that some rapes (or murders or any other crimes) are worse in degree than others, I do not mean to suggest at all that there are any that can be ignored or condoned—more that there is bad and really bad. So it is helpful for me to be reminded that there are understandable reasons why others might see red flags where none were intended by me.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway.

If I was a representative of my national HQ who was sent to a chapter to investigate a rape charge, I would find it VERY relevant to my rec to HQ as to whether the rape was a case of date rape between an individual member/per and his victim or whether it was a chapter-sanctioned gang rape. In one instance, perhaps the sanction is to put the chapter on probation, educate them and expel the perp while cooperating with law enforcement vs. shutting the chapter down for several years, expelling all members involved and possibly recolonizing once all of the former members were no longer matriculates at the university in question.

There's a HUGE difference from a prevention standpoint. Is one "worse" than the other? That's entirely subjective.

Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms.

No.. not "consistently." The vast majority of fraternity houses are totally safe places for women so are dorms. This UVA situation is obviously intolerable and horrible. It is not the norm by a long shot.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

Maybe other schools are different, but at least in my school, parties in Dorms had three characteristics that made them safer.
1) The parties couldn't be as loud.
2) Alcohol in the Fraternity houses (even though they were owned by the school) was relatively winked at, in the Dorms it wasn't. (yes, a soda could be hit with a roofie, but the roofie's effects would be more noticed if the early effects couldn't be attributed to Alcohol.
3) While a gang rape could happen in a dorm room away from the party, the chances of the men raping knowing where a room where sounds wouldn't be heard (Say a room immediately under the speakers) is, IMO, less likely to be true.

Note, *none* of these are directly tied to being a Greek Letter Organization, they would be equally true if the <Fill in the Blank> Sports team has a house they live in.