Paula Deen's use of the "N"-Word

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Andre Turner

Mizeree I2K is right and you are wrong.

Did you read the post that you quoted? He said we've come a long way, but haven't gotten there yet. How does that make him a disgrace?

Originally Posted by Kevin

meh.. oppression olympics as previously noted. Let's also recognize that whites did the same thing, perhaps worse, to Native Americans, and did it in a more overt way by slaughtering them and then attempting an overt cultural genocide.

Tell that to James Byrd's family.

Historically, black Americans' plight really isn't all that different or special. It is just one group which was oppressed and/or enslaved for a period of time. Historically speaking, those groups tend to do better when they assimilate rather than not.

I don't think there's a need to be the most special oppressed group. No one is trying to minimize what other groups have gone through. However, the fact that we still have people alive who felt the direct effects of this plight means that people are going to talk about it more. 1600s =/= 1960s.

Also, while I hear a lot of gritching about this dominant culture, what is the alternative to assimilation? Making up your own culture from scratch just because of your own perceived differences in skin pigmentation? Isn't it true that many, if not most black Americans have some European ancestry as well? Is that insignificant in your forming of your cultural identity?

Umm...What?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Umm...What?

This is a shame but I am glad people in this thread finally stopped bullshitting. LOL. Kevin is an illustration of privilege, racism, and the importance of changing high school and college history classes.

Whiteness does not rule the world (aside from power and privilege), white people were not doing the world a favor, and the white diaspora was not the first and only culture and civilization around the world. The TransAtlantic Slave Trade greatly tore apart cultures (different cultures and religions) but it did not completely remove cultures. The white diaspora did not introduce culture, religion, and civilization to ANYONE, not to the various Native American cultures, not to people of the African diaspora, not to people of the Asian diaspora, etc. Black Americans as a collective were stripped of native languages and other things, and introduced to cultural artifacts of the white diaspora and slavery. However, Blacks were not stripped of everything and there are "Black American/African American cultures" (Kevin needs to research the hundreds of books, articles, professional organizations, social organizations, and public service organizations that are illustrations) that both survived in spite of, and are a result of, people of the African diaspora assimilating (in various extents) into whiteness. And those of us who interact with nonwhites in the USA and around the world know that there are far more similarities across the nonwhite disapora than differences--and those similarities are not all remnants of slavery. They are remnants of rich cultures, many of which have existed for centuries.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

If you want to compare blacks to the Irish (as did the poster to whom I was responding), you are an order of magnitude off.

I think she was moreso declaring "my family didn't own slaves." You know, the cliche' phrase that whites have used for generations.

You are fully aware of this so the following is for the folks who are unfamiliar with this stuff (there is some interesting literature on the formation and social psychology of whiteness including work done by Roediger, Ignatiev, and even The Boston Phoenix's 1997 publication entitled "White Like Me"):

In the 1800s-1900s many Irish hated the idea of slavery and newly immigrated Irish were first considered "white ni**ers" when they first migrated to the United States of America. More specifically, ghettos were still identified through their true meaning (racially homogenous neighborhoods) and newly immigrated populations, including the Irish, tended to live in these neighborhoods until they were able to assimilate into whiteness and make enough money to live elsewhere. Blacks were referred to as "smoked Irish" and the Irish were referred to as "ni**ers turned inside out."
As with other white racial and ethnic groups (ethnic Jews are a more complex story), the Irish used social institutions and racism to prove that they were just like the other whites, should be able to assimilate into whiteness, and should have the resulting political and social privileges. Being Irish and Catholic continued to be one difficulty (as evidenced by labor market struggles, President John F. Kennedy and family, etc.) but the assimilation into whiteness occurred and the privileges that come with it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Tell that to James Byrd's family.

Talk about overplayed. There is black on white hate crime as well. If only whatshisname could be here to post a new thread every time something resembling it happened. It's all pretty heinous stuff. You can't judge an entire society by what a few redneck thugs decided to do. It's as unreasonable to judge our culture by what happened to James Byrd as it would be for me to judge any other culture by the actions of a few of its miscreants. As I recall, the murderers of James Byrd have been severely punished. One has been put to death. That should actually be an indicator of how far we've come. 50-60 years ago, law enforcement probably wouldn't have touched that case.

Umm...What?

Yeah, never mind with that. It was an incomplete thought. To complete it, I would suggest that instead of as a culture, looking towards assimilation, or at least integration, we've seen the creation of holidays like Kwanzaa from whole cloth in order to provide some sort of rigid separate identity. I think there is a separate black American culture or subculture which is more of a culture than a racial thing. You won't see many African immigrants, for example, participating in stereotypical African-American culture.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yeah, never mind with that. It was an incomplete thought. To complete it, I would suggest that instead of as a culture, looking towards assimilation, or at least integration, we've seen the creation of holidays like Kwanzaa from whole cloth in order to provide some sort of rigid separate identity. I think there is a separate black American culture or subculture which is more of a culture than a racial thing. You won't see many African immigrants, for example, participating in stereotypical African-American culture.

Why would an immigrant from, say, Eritrea take on African-American traditions? The country has its own cultural identity.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

To complete it, I would suggest that instead of as a culture, looking towards assimilation, or at least integration, we've seen the creation of holidays like Kwanzaa from whole cloth in order to provide some sort of rigid separate identity. I think there is a separate black American culture or subculture which is more of a culture than a racial thing. You won't see many African immigrants, for example, participating in stereotypical African-American culture.

This, too, is an incomplete thought. You should complete thoughts, and conduct some research, prior to typing. Culture is an everyday process that does not wait for occasions such as Juneteenth and Kwanzaa (most Black Americans do not celebrate these). I was taught about Kwanzaa as a child, and joined various organizations with Kwanzaa names while in college, but I did not celebrate Kwanzaa until I was late-20s/early-30s. I celebrate annually with friends, some of whom are Canadian. Kwanzaa is not only celebrated in the USA. It is celebrated elsewhere and takes on different meanings depending on the location.

More importantly, just as whites didn't give cultures and civilization to nonwhites, whites need to stop offering advice. Racial and ethnic minorities truly do not want nor need whites to tell us about our cultures, traditions, and how we should uphold our heritages.