From Local to National to Local to National

[carnation]

Isn't the term "a devout atheist" an oxymoron?

[DubaiSis]

Yes. Yes it is. But I liked the sound of it Plus, any other terms I could come up with read as angry or militant atheist, and that's not what I meant. A true believer in the lack of a higher being, therefore, devout.

[AGDAlum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Honestly, in the late 70s - early 80s in the Northeast...I'm sure much more of this happened than you would guess.

I find it anything but "sad" that a group of women refused to put up with racist behaviour. I also find it turbo awesome that the administration of the college was 100% in their corner.

http://deila.dickinson.edu/cdm4/docu...CISOSHOW=38747

I just read the entire scrapbook (hooray for digital archiving!). I was impressed that the ADEs had such nicely-thought-out symbols. And I applaud the sisters back then who made the decision to disaffiliate -- and their successors for the well-reasoned decision to reaffiliate.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by carnation

Isn't the term "a devout atheist" an oxymoron?

Actually, my mother asked our pastor to visit my grandfather (with his approval) when he was 96 years old. The pastor called my mother afterwards to say that my grandfather was the most devout atheist he had ever met.

Thankfully, within two weeks, my grandfather had a complete turnaround!

Back on topic: I question whether all rituals should be watered down so that everyone can tolerate it. I couldn't help but think that pktcougar made a similar point. Should a ritual be changed due to a handful of people, or should it remain true to its original form? That might be a concept of a completely different thread.

[DubaiSis]

While I can appreciate the thinking about not "watering down" the ritual, my guess is some sororities are more religiously based than others, and some may have added in a religious element because it just never occurred to them NOT to. Religion is the one ritual most people have from childhood, so adding Amen to anything can happen almost without thinking about it. Just as a for instance.

[sigmagirl2000]

I'm Jewish... Throughout my own initiation, and subsequent Sigma Kappa initiations as an active collegiate member, I was more curious than anything else... and spent a good deal of time researching certain Christian aspects that I never would have thought of even considering before. It was more eye opening... what my founders were so proud of and concerned with... that I found the beauty in their ideals. I am a mathematician, thus I look and study the thought an logical process, and I'm glad I spent the time and effort to learn what I did...

[jazing]

I like the perspective given from the link, very insightful.

As for this budding off topic discussion, I don't feel a ritual should be changed. It was written a certain way back when it was founded and there is no need to change it. It's actually better to keep it the way it is to better learn the history of your organization. My group doesn't limit itself to Jewish members anymore, but our ritual is still basically the same thing (one minor difference) and I hope it doesn't change in the years to come.

[pshsx1]

Originally Posted by jazing

As for this budding off topic discussion, I don't feel a ritual should be changed. It was written a certain way back when it was founded and there is no need to change it. It's actually better to keep it the way it is to better learn the history of your organization. My group doesn't limit itself to Jewish members anymore, but our ritual is still basically the same thing (one minor difference) and I hope it doesn't change in the years to come.

I think it needs to be looked at a different way. The Ritual of an organization needs to match the values that the organization embodies, tied to the founders' vision.

So, if XYZ now allows non-whites, but there was a clause in the Ritual that is anti-minorities, that should be removed.

But if XYZ was founded as an organization to further white culture and unity, then that same clause should be reevaluated to match the current social climate (read: equality).

Now, not the best example, but I hope you're getting the direction that I'm aiming for. Rituals should not completely change but should evolve with bettering times, considering how old most of our organizations are. Acceptable norms in 1900 aren't the same in 2013.

But if a Ritual doesn't at all match the organization's purpose and values, then there are much bigger issues which need to be resolved.

[jazing]

I think you explain it rather well. From hearing stories from my friends who are Jewish and pledges christian based groups, they do feel uncomfortable at ritual (that's all I ever get out of them ) but they understand its history.

Maybe I feel strongly about my ritual because of its Jewish values and how many Jewish groups have made the way for being less Jewish and we did the exact opposite, keeping with our values. If there are any AEPi's reading this I hope they get what I mean.

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by pshsx1

So, if XYZ now allows non-whites, but there was a clause in the Ritual that is anti-minorities, that should be removed.

But if XYZ was founded as an organization to further white culture and unity, then that same clause should be reevaluated to match the current social climate (read: equality).

This is more or less what I was getting at. A sorority may have included elements that are now considered wildly racist, even though white supremacy was never what they intended. The same could have happened inadvertently where it applied to religion. They were raised in religious homes so when it came time to write a ritual, of course they included these elements. But they didn't intend for the sorority to be religious per se. Or maybe they did, but that's never been the take away I got on our ritual.

/eta I don't know if my sorority has ever modified the ritual. Maybe I should look into that!

[33girl]

There's a difference between POLICY and RITUAL. This discussion is making me REALLY curious as to what some rituals may include.

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by 33girl

There's a difference between POLICY and RITUAL. This discussion is making me REALLY curious as to what some rituals may include.

Seriously - I've never had a real craving to know about other groups' rituals, but this conversation makes me curious.

It's hard for me to imagine that if a ritual (or section of) was that offensive, that some disgruntled new initiate wouldn't drop and then tell the world of the horrible experience.

I mean, there are some historically significant pieces that shouldn't be changed (like the catsuits, duh), but if there are parts that are as outrageous as has been implied, I'd think it's time to make the ritual match the values of an organization.

[DubaiSis]

Outrageous is in the eye of the beholder. Using a non-religious analogy, the Pledge of Allegiance is super-duper to some people, whatever to others, kind of annoying to some who can stand quietly while others recite it, and really gets up the hackles of some. As we become more diverse and the idea of what a "sorority girl" is changes, I would think more of the latter would surface.

And, while I've never gone in search, I think your comment about a disgruntled ex-member blabbing actually does happen. I just like the idea of preserving your secrets, even if I don't know what they are. And the way I can preserve it is to not do the leg-work to find out for myself. Even though there's definitely a part of me who would like to know the details. Like, how similar is the symbolic meaning of Alpha Xi Delta versus Alpha Gamma Delta? But that's a discussion that is pointless to have since, you know, nobody's talking!

[sigmagirl2000]

I guess I meant more about an ex-member blabbing something bad enough to be picked up in news or what not and brought into the spotlight, thus causing all NPCs to have to evaluate ritual or what not. It makes more sense in my head, but words aren't working well for me right now. I know there are likely many secrets out there, but I don't really want to know.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

There are two issues here:

1) For some people, there is a slight discomfort, but they suck that up and do it anyway. I think I fall into this category. Being asked to participate in a ritual with Christian elements, or those elements being specially modified for me, is really just a reminder of "hey, you are different", which is something that any non-Christian in America deals with a thousand times in their lives, and while I'd prefer not to deal with it in my ritual, it's pretty much the same as when people in my office buy me Christmas cards. I accept that the sentiment trumps the exact wording.

2) A much bigger concern to me is that some elements of ritual might straight-up conflict with people's beliefs, as something they are absolutely not willing to do. I know everyone here is saying "oh, it's no big deal, that has never happened in my group", but I don't find it far-fetched at all that some non-Christian students would just avoid the Greek system entirely because of the PERCEPTION that these are Christian (or Jewish) rituals, regardless of the reality. I think it would be great if more groups opened their ritual books, or made their ritual truly non-denominational with a statement to that effect.