Why are recs absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by IUHoosiergirl88

Maybe I'm not worthy of understanding these Southern pearl clutching issues, but why would I care if someone's parent was found guilty of murder or something of that nature? That PNM may be estranged from that family member and likely has little to no connection to that individual at that point. It's not as if that PNM was the murderer! Perhaps that PNM wanted a new start away from those issues. What if the PNM had been a victim of domestic violence and the rec writer mentioned that?

In addition, how does the active know which to believe--the alum or the PNM? She likely does not know you from Sally Smith, and while you are a sister of her sorority, that doesn't necessarily mean that she trusts your information to be 100% accurate either.

Thank God I have a double strand to clutch! Seriously though, it is different for us "old world" folks. We would know if they were estranged from that family member. And the chapters who really use recs know who their alums are and who writes good recs and who doesn't. I've worked many a back room at recruitment time in the SEC and without giving away MS information I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

[MaryPoppins]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

This.

[WCsweet<3]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Thank God I have a double strand to clutch! Seriously though, it is different for us "old world" folks. We would know if they were estranged from that family member. And the chapters who really use recs know who their alums are and who writes good recs and who doesn't. I've worked many a back room at recruitment time in the SEC and without giving away MS information I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

To preface: I come from a campus where recs are not rare, but not common. Less than 10% of PNMs had a rec my senior year.

Let's pretend a girl who I know fairly well is going through recruitment at [insert favorite SEC school]. I may not have stories about her, but know her fairly well, well enough that I would recruit her heavily for my chapter. However the chapter at SEC University don't know me from any other alumnae. What does the bold part say about my rec?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

To preface: I come from a campus where recs are not rare, but not common. Less than 10% of PNMs had a rec my senior year.

Let's pretend a girl who I know fairly well is going through recruitment at [insert favorite SEC school]. I may not have stories about her, but know her fairly well, well enough that I would recruit her heavily for my chapter. However the chapter at SEC University don't know me from any other alumnae. What does the bold part say about my rec?

This is the key - do you really know how to write a "proper SEC rec?" Without asking for private MS information, do you know what YOUR group considers a proper rec? I know how to write a lot of different kinds of recs:
one for a top girl coming out of a top HS, one for an average to above average girl who may not look all that great on paper but would really be an asset, one for the girl who is average or below (for whatever reasons) but who does look good on paper and, of course, the "no" rec no matter if she is Ms Dog Hollow. It's not just filling out the form and checking boxes. It's the added info...stellar academic and supportive, involved Greek family or very average student according to her HS counselor, always had concerns about her academics, will be taking remedial classes, and then the "I do not support this woman for membership in AAA. An adviser may contact me for details" which, at big SEC school, she probably will. At that point you tell about the arrest record, whatever and the adviser handles it. I would imagine that the recruitment team for each NPC group at big SEC school can tell a perfunctory rec from a well written one a mile away.

And while we're at it, I would venture most NPC groups began with the requirement that all new members be sponsored/recommended by another - like most organizations/clubs who restrict membership do. The members would consider a woman who was sort of nominated and then decide whether to ask her to perform certain tasks to see if she was someone who could fit into the membership. Did you know that many groups required their potential members to write an academic paper on a particular topic and then present it to the membership? And that the membership researched her family? (people didn't travel far for college back int hose days - particularly women).

You just can't go sign up for most private country clubs, dinner clubs, men's clubs, etc. Someone has to put your name forward. This is a holdover from that era. Some groups still strictly hold to it, some not so much.

[HQWest]

Wow - I go out of town for a few and y'all light up yhe boards! Let me see if I can explain this from my chapter's prospective.

This is not for everybody. Go back and look at your symphony or your pillars or your mission statement. One of those tenets is probably scholarship and another service. This is an honor society. We want outstanding young ladies both for a great social aspect and for a great networking or team building aspect. It would be great if everyone went to a local school and pledged at chapters where several girls already knew them - but thats not the way it works anymore. (Even for deferred recruitment.)

A rec gives us a chance to take a chance on someone we don't know. We are going to invite her to live in our house and to really be our sister. A NPC sorority is for a life time. If you just want to meet people - join the Spanish club or something. If you had trouble with grades - please spend some time on your books. Its all for nothing - if you are Miss Super but cant graduate?

. If you really have no one in your area that you can ask for a rec - wouldn't it be better for you in the long run to join the group of someone you know? So you have a place - a friend - to go back to when you graduate?

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by Titchou

This is the key - do you really know how to write a "proper SEC rec?" Without asking for private MS information, do you know what YOUR group considers a proper rec? I know how to write a lot of different kinds of recs:

Considering the numbers of OOS PNMs, and the OOS composition of pledge classes at Bama, I doubt that the OOS alumnae writing these recs have ever heard of “a proper SEC rec.” I’ve actually never heard that term – and I’ve written recs at Bama for decades.

Originally Posted by Titchou

one for a top girl coming out of a top HS, one for an average to above average girl who may not look all that great on paper but would really be an asset, one for the girl who is average or below (for whatever reasons) but who does look good on paper and, of course, the "no" rec no matter if she is Ms Dog Hollow.

I don’t agree with writing unsolicited “no” recs. If there is some (verified) circumstance that would call a girl’s eventual membership into question, then that could be communicated privately to a chapter advisor -- rec or not. I feel like the other information (academics, activities, etc) is the same regardless of who submits the info (alum or PNM).

Originally Posted by Titchou

It's not just filling out the form and checking boxes. It's the added info...stellar academic and supportive, involved Greek family or very average student according to her HS counselor, always had concerns about her academics, will be taking remedial classes,

I hope that no high school counselor, in her capacity as a high school counselor, is discussing girls with sorority alumnae – this would be a violation of confidentiality, and potential liability with a capital L.

.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

I hope that no high school counselor, in her capacity as a high school counselor, is discussing girls with sorority alumnae – this would be a violation of confidentiality, and potential liability with a capital L.

Our form includes a box you can check off that indicates you don't know a PNM personally, but you have obtained information about her from a reliable source, such as a teacher, clergy, or Panhellenic files.

I am unaware of any high school counselor-student confidentiality privilege. This may vary from state to state. A guidance counselor is not a psychiatrist or psychologist. They are in a position of trust, yes, and can speak to the student's academic record and activities and general community reputation as any other person could. The student is putting their grades and activities out there for scrutiny by the sororities. Their transcripts will indicate any blemishes by suspensions or expulsions. I fail to see what liability you speak of. If the student is in counseling with the guidance counselor, there may be a privilege and liability if the counselor reveals confidential discussions about mental health.

I have friends who are high school counselors. They may talk about their students in the abstract without naming names, just like a doctor or lawyer could, and there's no violation.

I can't imagine any high school counselor going out of her way to make negative statements to sorority alumnae for the purpose of reporting someone for a no-rec to a sorority she is not a member of. That's absurd and vindictive. That doesn't mean it can't happen; it is just highly unlikely. Adults have better things to do than to act like teenage girls. And guidance counselors take their roles seriously to help students.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

I am unaware of any high school counselor-student confidentiality privilege. This may vary from state to state. A guidance counselor is not a psychiatrist or psychologist. They are in a position of trust, yes, and can speak to the student's academic record and activities and general community reputation as any other person could. The student is putting their grades and activities out there for scrutiny by the sororities. Their transcripts will indicate any blemishes by suspensions or expulsions. I fail to see what liability you speak of.

This would probably fall under Federal law (which supersedes state or local law/policies) -- the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA):

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/f...rpa/index.html


This might be loosely considered the educational equivalent of HIPAA in healthcare, which the general public is probably more familiar with.

[adpiucf]

Hartofsec, this is incorrect. FERPA does not make the guidance counselor liable in this scenario. The only way to hold her liable under FERPA in your hypothetical is where some busy body alumna finds out Susie Q is going to SEC University and decides to contact the high school to get Susie's education records for whatever reason AND THE COUNSELOR GIVES THEM TO HER. She can call the counselor to get information about Susie's honors and awards without any FERPA violation. FERPA doesn't prevent the counselor from discussing her mental impressions of the student. She just can't release any written notes in the student's advising folder. Private notes, campus police records, and medical records are not education records under FERPA.

FERPA governs the right of education records. Parents hold that right until the child turns 18. Then the child, now an adult holds that right. The child is putting their education records at "issue" for the purpose of going through recruitment and has allowed Panhellenic and the sororities to view their transcripts. FERPA means that a parent can't call up their adult child's college later demanding to know how they're doing in Organic Chemistry. If the student to consents to a background check, FERPA does not apply.

FERPA prevents the school from releasing information about a student's "education record" without written consent of the parent/child above age 18. However, FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to certain parties or under some conditions, including schools where a student is transferring, to comply with judicial order/subpoena, etc. Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance. There must be notice of the disclosure, and notice is considered sufficient by FERPA if students are notified of the possibility of such disclosure occurring via their student handbook or a public notice informing them about FERPA.

A guidance counselor's actions are imputed to the school. A guidance counselor may observe FERPA and disclose this directory information. Moreover, the student matriculating has provided written consent for the university and Panhellenic to view their education record. There is no violation here for a guidance counselor to provide directory information to an alumna writing a rec. The alumna has also been provided with the student's education record by the student herself.

There is no legal privilege here or liability to the counselor/school when you, the subject of the matter, put that something (your records) at issue for consideration. You've consented.

ETA: Also, if we're asserting liability, you also have to consider that liability means lawsuit. A lawsuit requires actual injury. Where are you suing? State court? Federal court? Either way, there's no FERPA violation, so let's default to state court. What is the counselor liable for? Defamation or invasion of privacy? This is unlikely unless the counselor made patently false statements about the student or violated her reasonable expectation of privacy, and again, the student has already put her grades at issue by going through recruitment and consenting to have her education records verified. What is the measure of damages? The sorority can't be forced to take her as a member, and she'll have to prove money damages as a result of her damaged reputation to that sorority chapter for the no-rec? It all seems highly unlikely that any money damages can be assessed. If there's no remedy available, the court can't redress the grievance and will conclude there is no harm. If the counselor gets disciplined or fired for any of this, she does have a legal remedy that can be addressed for wrongful termination because she has done nothing wrong.

While we're at this, just want to make sure no one is taking this as legal advice.