Buckingham Palace shares big news!

[AlphaFrog]

It annoys me that they still refer to her as Kate Middleton. She's HRH, The Duchess if Cambridge, Lady Kate...pick one. Did they refer to Diana as "Diana Spencer" for awhile?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

It annoys me that they still refer to her as Kate Middleton. She's HRH, The Duchess if Cambridge, Lady Kate...pick one.

Well, in Scotland she's the Countess of Strathearn.

And no, she's not Lady Kate. Lady is not used for duchesses, especially royal duchesses. She could be called Princess William, but the royal duchy title actually outranks the prince title, so that makes the preferred style "HRH the Duchess of Cambridge" or "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge."

FWIW, Kate's full title is Her Royal Highness Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus.

Did they refer to Diana as "Diana Spencer" for awhile?

No, they called her Princess Diana, which was also incorrect. (Ditto Princess Grace.) With the possible exception of a princess consort (of which Camilla Parker Bowles will be the first), only someone who is a princess by blood is entitled to be called "Princess [Name]."

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And no, she's not Lady Kate. Lady is not used for duchesses, especially royal duchesses.

Sorry. Brain stuck in Renaissance Festival mode where most of the noble women used "Lady" since most were playing *daughters* of Nobles. I also had a few insist on calling me Lady Sirena, since I played a Duchess-ranked character, which was necessary since they wanted my costumes to be royal blue. The whole fairy thing just added to the grey area there when it came to titles & pecking order.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

And I heart my Jamestown cousin for his knowledge of the peerage!

Aww, thanks, cuz.

(You know, the Duke of Cambridge and I are distant -- very distant -- cousins, too.)

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Sorry. Brain stuck in Renaissance Festival mode where most of the noble women used "Lady" since most were playing *daughters* of Nobles. I also had a few insist on calling me Lady Sirena, since I played a Duchess-ranked character, which was necessary since they wanted my costumes to be royal blue. The whole fairy thing just added to the grey area there when it came to titles & pecking order.

Or, you could have been thinking about the expected child, who, if a daughter, will be "Lady ___ of Cambridge."

The current rule is that as long as the Queen is on the throne, only William and Kate's first son will be entitled to be called "Prince."* All the other kids, as great-grandchildren of the monarch, will be "Lord" or "Lady" whoever until either their grandfather or father becomes King. At that point, as grandchildren or children of the monarch descended through the male line, they all become princes and princesses.


* I wonder if the current rule that the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales is entitled to be called "Prince," will be modified now that the rules of succession are being changed, so that William and Kate's eldest child, whether male or female, will be titled "Prince" or "Princess." That's the point after all -- the one who is called "Prince" is the one who is third in line for the throne.

[AlphaFrog]

So, two questions...

Why will Camilla be a Princess Consort instead of a Queen Consort?

When QEII passes and William & Kate's children become princes & princesses, will Kate become a princess as well? Or does she need that title bestowed? I wonder if they'll give it to her when the baby is born...

[AZ-AlphaXi]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Why will Camilla be a Princess Consort instead of a Queen Consort?

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the Palace announced when Charles and Camilla married that she would take the title of Princess Consort when he becomes King in order to short circuit ill feeling about Queen Camilla replacing Queen Diana.

[ColdInCanada11]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

So, two questions...

Why will Camilla be a Princess Consort instead of a Queen Consort?

When QEII passes and William & Kate's children become princes & princesses, will Kate become a princess as well? Or does she need that title bestowed? I wonder if they'll give it to her when the baby is born...

She already is a princess- Princess William. She won't be a princess in her own right (unless a British monarch chooses to make her one [doubtful]).

The "Princess Consort" issue is because of Diana and her memory. Technically she will be Queen (Consort) and Charles will have to create the title Princess Consort.

[AlphaFrog]

I meant princess in her own right.

And I kinda feel bad for Camilla still living in Diana's shadow. Even if she is technically Queen, it's not how she'll be remembered.

I'm all for skipping straight to King William. Thought obviously I, nor does anyone, get a vote. Monarchy and all.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Aww, thanks, cuz.

(You know, the Duke of Cambridge and I are distant -- very distant -- cousins, too.)

I did not know this! That's exciting!

Or, you could have been thinking about the expected child, who, if a daughter, will be "Lady ___ of Cambridge."

The current rule is that as long as the Queen is on the throne, only William and Kate's first son will be entitled to be called "Prince."* All the other kids, as great-grandchildren of the monarch, will be "Lord" or "Lady" whoever until either their grandfather or father becomes King. At that point, as grandchildren or children of the monarchLady descended through the male line, they all become princes and princesses.


* I wonder if the current rule that the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales is entitled to be called "Prince," will be modified now that the rules of succession are being changed, so that William and Kate's eldest child, whether male or female, will be titled "Prince" or "Princess." That's the point after all -- the one who is called "Prince" is the one who is third in line for the throne.

Just curious - the Duke of York's daughters are styled Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yet, the Earl of Wessex's children are Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor. Any explanation?


For everyone's entertainment:

The first 20 individuals in the line of succession are:

Charles, Prince of Wales, has been first in the line of succession since 1952.

1) Charles, Prince of Wales (b 1948), eldest son of Queen Elizabeth II
2) Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (b 1982), elder son of Charles, Prince of Wales
3) Prince Harry of Wales (b 1984), younger son of Charles, Prince of Wales
4) Prince Andrew, Duke of York (b 1960), second son of Queen Elizabeth II
5) Princess Beatrice of York (b 1988), elder daughter of Prince Andrew, Duke of York
6) Princess Eugenie of York (b 1990), younger daughter of Prince Andrew, Duke of York
7) Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex (b 1964), youngest son of Queen Elizabeth II
8) James, Viscount Severn (b 2007), son of Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
9) Lady Louise Windsor (b 2003), daughter of Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
10) Anne, Princess Royal (b 1950), daughter of Queen Elizabeth II
11) Peter Phillips (b 1977), son of Anne, Princess Royal
12) Savannah Phillips (b 2010), daughter of Peter Phillips, son of Anne, Princess Royal
13) Isla Phillips (b 2012), daughter of Peter Phillips, son of Anne, Princess Royal
14) Zara Phillips (b 1981), daughter of Anne, Princess Royal
15) David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley (b 1961), son of Princess Margaret, the late younger sister of Queen Elizabeth II
16) The Honourable Charles Armstrong-Jones (b 1999), son of David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
17) The Honourable Margarita Armstrong-Jones (b 2002), daughter of David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
18) Lady Sarah Chatto (b 1964), daughter of Princess Margaret the late younger sister of Queen Elizabeth II
19) Samuel Chatto (b 1996), elder son of Lady Sarah Chatto, daughter of Princess Margaret
20) Arthur Chatto (b 1999), younger son of Lady Sarah Chatto, daughter of Princess Margaret

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by honeychile

I did not know this! That's exciting!


Just curious - the Duke of York's daughters are styled Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yet, the Earl of Wessex's children are Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor. Any explanation?


For everyone's entertainment:

The first 20 individuals in the line of succession are:

Charles, Prince of Wales, has been first in the line of succession since 1952.

1) Charles, Prince of Wales (b 1948), eldest son of Queen Elizabeth II
2) Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (b 1982), elder son of Charles, Prince of Wales
3) Prince Harry of Wales (b 1984), younger son of Charles, Prince of Wales
4) Prince Andrew, Duke of York (b 1960), second son of Queen Elizabeth II
5) Princess Beatrice of York (b 1988), elder daughter of Prince Andrew, Duke of York
6) Princess Eugenie of York (b 1990), younger daughter of Prince Andrew, Duke of York
7) Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex (b 1964), youngest son of Queen Elizabeth II
8) James, Viscount Severn (b 2007), son of Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
9) Lady Louise Windsor (b 2003), daughter of Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
10) Anne, Princess Royal (b 1950), daughter of Queen Elizabeth II
11) Peter Phillips (b 1977), son of Anne, Princess Royal
12) Savannah Phillips (b 2010), daughter of Peter Phillips, son of Anne, Princess Royal
13) Isla Phillips (b 2012), daughter of Peter Phillips, son of Anne, Princess Royal
14) Zara Phillips (b 1981), daughter of Anne, Princess Royal
15) David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley (b 1961), son of Princess Margaret, the late younger sister of Queen Elizabeth II
16) The Honourable Charles Armstrong-Jones (b 1999), son of David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
17) The Honourable Margarita Armstrong-Jones (b 2002), daughter of David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
18) Lady Sarah Chatto (b 1964), daughter of Princess Margaret the late younger sister of Queen Elizabeth II
19) Samuel Chatto (b 1996), elder son of Lady Sarah Chatto, daughter of Princess Margaret
20) Arthur Chatto (b 1999), younger son of Lady Sarah Chatto, daughter of Princess Margaret

This is interesting, because it is surprisingly clear to me. It passes to the eldest, then their eldest, and once those options are exhausted, it goes to the sibling at the lowest level.

[thetygerlily]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

This is interesting, because it is surprisingly clear to me. It passes to the eldest, then their eldest, and once those options are exhausted, it goes to the sibling at the lowest level.

Okay good, that was my assumption but I lost track once it started getting away from QEII's territory. I would love to see this in family tree view! I need a process flow diagram

[ColdInCanada11]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Just curious - the Duke of York's daughters are styled Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yet, the Earl of Wessex's children are Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor. Any explanation?

Edward and Sophie chose to style their children as the children of an Earl rather than a prince to make life easier for them (similar to Anne and Mark). I believe that they can chose to use the title of Prince/ss when they are older if they so wish.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

I did not know this! That's exciting!

Like I said, very distant. Through the Spencer side.

Just curious - the Duke of York's daughters are styled Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. Yet, the Earl of Wessex's children are Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor. Any explanation?

Because the Queen said so?

Seriously, that's pretty much the case. Under the rules, they are entitled to the title prince and princess. However, when Edward and Sophie married, the palace announced that he was created an earl* and also announced that his children would be styled as children of an earl (Lord and Lady) rather than as children of the monarch's son. As the oldest (and only) son of an earl, son James, goes by his father's subordinate title of Viscount Severn rather than by Lord James.

Presumably, the Queen's announcement was driven by a desire to spare the children some of the baggage and publicity that can go with being "prince" and "princess," especially since Edward and Sophie both continued to work in the private sector.


* The same announcement said that upon the death of Philip, Edward will succeed to the title of Duke of Edinburgh.

Originally Posted by ColdInCanada11

I believe that they can chose to use the title of Prince/ss when they are older if they so wish.

I don't think so, since the decision on how they will be styled was the Queen's. I think either the Queen would have to change her mind on that or a subsequent monarch would have to direct otherwise.

[ColdInCanada11]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

* The same announcement said that upon the death of Philip, Edward will succeed to the title of Duke of Edinburgh.

As long as Charles sticks with the plan