Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

RE: Auto/gun deaths - does any place break it down per capita? That would be a better way to evaluate the data than just the raw numbers. I'd also be interested in knowing the number of registered vehicles vs. the number of guns before I decided how important/unimportant the information is.

Per capita doesn't really matter when there are MORE gun deaths than auto deaths. I guess if you haven't been trained in a medical field and know this backwards and forwards that's not as shocking, but it is ridiculous. Motor vehicle crashes are the undisputed king of killers in 40 states in the union and always has been. This is unprecedented. I did trauma surgery for two years and this was drilled into our heads.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Per capita doesn't really matter when there are MORE gun deaths than auto deaths. I guess if you haven't been trained in a medical field and know this backwards and forwards that's not as shocking, but it is ridiculous. Motor vehicle crashes are the undisputed king of killers in 40 states in the union and always has been. This is unprecedented. I did trauma surgery for two years and this was drilled into our heads.

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

According the the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention:

In 2009 (latest available data), there were 36,909 reported suicide deaths.

Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.

Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.

Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.

If what they say is true, 18,455 gun deaths in 2009 were by suicide, not homicide. Of course, this doesn't even take into account police shootings or accidents.


http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

It doesn't matter because you are already given a comparison...the number of motor vehicle deaths which happen to be the de facto #1 cause of death in every other state in the union. Per capita data is just comparison data. You don't need to points of comparison. One really will suffice. The breakdown of types of gunshot causes might be interesting to talk about for prevention (the whole point of bringing up the need for discussing the change in #1 cause of death in these states), but suicide and accidents can't be removed from those numbers as they are valid types of preventable gun violence.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

...suicide and accidents can't be removed from those numbers as they are valid types of preventable gun violence.

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

Lethal violence and crime have always existed and will always exist. That fact does not minimize the factors that contribute to shifts in violence and crime. There are numerous factors that contribute to stagnancy, increases, and decreases in violence and crime incidents and rates. If gun access and gun culture were factors in Japan, the data over 10-20 years may reflect shifts in incidents and rates of suicide attempts and completed suicides.

People committing violence and crime will use whatever method is available. If guns are not available, the violence and crime will simply not be gun violence and gun crime. For instance, some offenders burglarize and rob without guns. That fact does not eliminate the trend of gun access on the part of the offender and the potential victim increasing the opportunity for a crime to be committed and increasing the likelihood of violence.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account. (which by the way would make it really hard to fight off that intruder that everyone is afraid of when your gun is in a safe with a trigger lock and your bullets are stored somewhere else...anything else puts your children and family in danger which statistically is more likely that someone breaking into your house in the first place. ) I think you'll find that all of us "vitriolic" gun regulating liberals just want basic protections for people. We see gun enthusiasts balk at every single suggestion even when it comes to assault weapons, high capacity clips etc. the argument that "only the criminals will have them" is pretty lame when every time these items have been used in a mass killing in the US, the items have been bought legally.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account.

Thank you.

To go back to Jeff OTMG's logic, fire extinguishers are effective as linked with other factors that reduce the likelihood of a fire ever occurring and increase the likelihood that a fire can be contained. However, fire extinguishers would be ineffective if fire safety precautions were not used and people do not know how to use fire extinguishers. The effectiveness of fire extinguishers would be reduced if fire extinguishers increased the likelihood that a fire would occur and that the fire would be fatal. If people brought in fire extinguishers to blow birthday candles on a cake, that would be a FAIL and an unnecessarily escalation. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and said "I don't know what's next," that would be a FAIL. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and aimed it at their eyes, that would be a FAIL. If people confused the propane tank for the fire extinguisher, that would be a FAIL.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

No, I was saying that 50% of the gun deaths were suicides when comparing them to vehicle fatalities and that you can't count suicides because firearms do not cause suicide. It is because Sugarman needs those numbers included to make a point and makes in sound like there are more firearms homicides than vehicular deaths. It is about 50/50 but it tends to cheat more to the suicide and is closer to 55/45.



Not true. There are hundreds of thousands of new firearms entering into the general population every year yet the crime and murder rate is down, so extra guns 'floating around' (I don't know that term) do not cause extra deaths.

As far as ID's go, the required ID for purchasing a firearm is set by federal law. One thing that a student ID will show is a residency requirement set under federal law. Voting laws are controlled by indiviual states and you must be a citizen to vote. There are foreign exchange students who have student ID's, but are not allowed to vote. Under certain circumstances they may me allowed to purchase firearms. The federal law regarding foreign nationals changed under the Clinton administration.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I my personal experience, on two separate occasions, I needed and had access to a gun which saved either myself or a loved one from harm without a shot being fired. I did need it, I did have it, but that is two days in 30 years of carrying a gun and I carry everyday, all the time. Seldom during the 24 hours day is a firearm out of reach. It is like a watch or cell phone to me. If I walk out the door without any of those things it is immediately noticable and I go back in and get what is missing. Did I need it those other 10,948 days? No, but I didn't know that when I left the house. I can't predict the future. I wish I could, it isn't easy carrying a gun everyday. It takes thought and consideration weighing concealment, comfort, clothing, and caliber. What data suggests that I am not correct in my statement? It would have been horrible to have not had the gun with me on those two occasions. One thing that I also learned was that if you do not see the problem coming it may be too late even if you have a gun. Awareness is key.



It looks like you are saying that the access to firearms increase the chance that a law abiding individual becomes a victim of a crime? Please explain. It has not had that affect on me.



I don't know what difference it would make if Japan has guns or not, their suicide statistics are a cultural thing, just as violent crime tends to be culturally based around the world. I do take issue with the US having the highest suicide rate of 'industrialized nations'. Japan is industrialized and their rate is higher. In fact I count the US at about 26 on the industrialized scale. Iceland, Ireland, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Sweden, New Zealand, Austria, France, Belgium, Finland, and more all have higher suicide rates than the US. We aren't even close to the highest.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

That should be interesting since all the shootings in DC were done with illegal guns. So the people who had them were criminals. Imagine that, criminals committig crime. I actually had a guy try to tell me that the high firearm death rate in DC was due to the weak gun laws in Virginia. I simply asked, why the firearm homicide rate in Virginia wasn't higher than in DC? Someday people will realize that it is the person, not the guns.



You are exactly right and that is what has been happening for years. The firearms death rate has been dropping and improved widespread safety training, concealed carry permit training, the increase in IPSC, SASS, and IDPA competitions have all helped to that end.



I don't believe that there is a solution to EVERY problem. There may be a solution to every problem at some time in the future, but not immediately.

Please learn to multi-quote. K THX BAI.