Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[SWTXBelle]

RE: Auto/gun deaths - does any place break it down per capita? That would be a better way to evaluate the data than just the raw numbers. I'd also be interested in knowing the number of registered vehicles vs. the number of guns before I decided how important/unimportant the information is.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

RE: Auto/gun deaths - does any place break it down per capita? That would be a better way to evaluate the data than just the raw numbers. I'd also be interested in knowing the number of registered vehicles vs. the number of guns before I decided how important/unimportant the information is.

Per capita doesn't really matter when there are MORE gun deaths than auto deaths. I guess if you haven't been trained in a medical field and know this backwards and forwards that's not as shocking, but it is ridiculous. Motor vehicle crashes are the undisputed king of killers in 40 states in the union and always has been. This is unprecedented. I did trauma surgery for two years and this was drilled into our heads.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Per capita doesn't really matter when there are MORE gun deaths than auto deaths. I guess if you haven't been trained in a medical field and know this backwards and forwards that's not as shocking, but it is ridiculous. Motor vehicle crashes are the undisputed king of killers in 40 states in the union and always has been. This is unprecedented. I did trauma surgery for two years and this was drilled into our heads.

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

According the the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention:

In 2009 (latest available data), there were 36,909 reported suicide deaths.

Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.

Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.

Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.

If what they say is true, 18,455 gun deaths in 2009 were by suicide, not homicide. Of course, this doesn't even take into account police shootings or accidents.


http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I guess it depends on how you define "doesn't really matter". I'd also want to know how many deaths were suicides, accidents, police shooting suspects, etc.

Anyone have the stats on Switzerland?

It doesn't matter because you are already given a comparison...the number of motor vehicle deaths which happen to be the de facto #1 cause of death in every other state in the union. Per capita data is just comparison data. You don't need to points of comparison. One really will suffice. The breakdown of types of gunshot causes might be interesting to talk about for prevention (the whole point of bringing up the need for discussing the change in #1 cause of death in these states), but suicide and accidents can't be removed from those numbers as they are valid types of preventable gun violence.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

...suicide and accidents can't be removed from those numbers as they are valid types of preventable gun violence.

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

Lethal violence and crime have always existed and will always exist. That fact does not minimize the factors that contribute to shifts in violence and crime. There are numerous factors that contribute to stagnancy, increases, and decreases in violence and crime incidents and rates. If gun access and gun culture were factors in Japan, the data over 10-20 years may reflect shifts in incidents and rates of suicide attempts and completed suicides.

People committing violence and crime will use whatever method is available. If guns are not available, the violence and crime will simply not be gun violence and gun crime. For instance, some offenders burglarize and rob without guns. That fact does not eliminate the trend of gun access on the part of the offender and the potential victim increasing the opportunity for a crime to be committed and increasing the likelihood of violence.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account. (which by the way would make it really hard to fight off that intruder that everyone is afraid of when your gun is in a safe with a trigger lock and your bullets are stored somewhere else...anything else puts your children and family in danger which statistically is more likely that someone breaking into your house in the first place. ) I think you'll find that all of us "vitriolic" gun regulating liberals just want basic protections for people. We see gun enthusiasts balk at every single suggestion even when it comes to assault weapons, high capacity clips etc. the argument that "only the criminals will have them" is pretty lame when every time these items have been used in a mass killing in the US, the items have been bought legally.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account.

Thank you.

To go back to Jeff OTMG's logic, fire extinguishers are effective as linked with other factors that reduce the likelihood of a fire ever occurring and increase the likelihood that a fire can be contained. However, fire extinguishers would be ineffective if fire safety precautions were not used and people do not know how to use fire extinguishers. The effectiveness of fire extinguishers would be reduced if fire extinguishers increased the likelihood that a fire would occur and that the fire would be fatal. If people brought in fire extinguishers to blow birthday candles on a cake, that would be a FAIL and an unnecessarily escalation. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and said "I don't know what's next," that would be a FAIL. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and aimed it at their eyes, that would be a FAIL. If people confused the propane tank for the fire extinguisher, that would be a FAIL.