The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Just putting this out there, he was taller than Zimmerman and a football player.

I'm 31, 5'2, and a lot of pounds. If a 17 year old 5'0 gymnast came at me, they'd beat the shit out of me. Size sometimes doesn't matter. You'd think I could kick some ass, but I'm really weak as hell.

(Disclaimer: Still waiting for the trial, haven't convicted anyone in my mind yet. I still believe that not ALL details have been released to us, so I'm waiting to see what the courts and professionals say.)

Understood.

Now, there's no mention of his role on the football team (he could've been JV or 3rd string kicker, for all we know), so all the talk (not on this site) making him out to be a brick wall with cat-like reflexes may not be true.

The reports I've seen say that Trayvon was ~6'0" and ~150-160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as being ~5'9" and ~240 pounds. If you don't think you can defend yourself (against someone smaller than you, no less), then 1) don't volunteer to be the sole neighborhood watchman in a community with an increasing crime rate and 2) don't pursue someone who you think could take you down.

(Ditto with your disclaimer, since we're all speculating )

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

. . . but at this point, there is no possible way that you could look at the evidence and be able to come to the conclusion that there is no way Zimmerman wasn't defending himself.

I got lost in the triple negatives. Do you mean no way to come to the conclusion that there no way Zimmerman was defending himself?

[Kevin]

Wasn't. Maybe I got lost in my own poor writing.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Having represented a fair number of folks facing time, especially those who haven't done time before, the prospect of incarceration hanging over one's head tends to be enough to cause significant stress-related weight loss. Considering Zimmerman's situation, the stress combined with the fact that if he's recognized by someone on the street, he might be killed, gives him a really good reason to lose weight.

That's absolutely not how it's been portrayed by the Zimmerman camp, at least in my reading - he also could have cut the fat out with his own hunting knife, but why deal with anything other than Occam's Razor?

The point of stating he doesn't weigh 230 (or whatever was his booking weight) was that he didn't have a "100lb advantage" as some initially latched onto. The Zimmerman camp simply didn't realize that advertising weight loss isn't an explicitly 'good' thing - after all, getting more fit doesn't make you less likely to win a fight.

That assumes an awful lot. While we know Zimmerman pursued against the advice of the 911 operator, we don't know that he confronted or engaged at any time, do we?

By pursuing, he engaged - I didn't mean to imply anything about starting a fight, only that he chose to pursue (with the expressed intent to confront - "they always get away").

Zimmerman's surrogates didn't enhance the video (whatever that means). Fox did. Even if false, it couldn't be any worse than the NBC editors who edited the 911 call to cast Zimmerman in a false light.

What a bizarre, non sequitur response (the NBC part - which was indeed despicable) - I meant that the injuries were not obvious in the original footage, as they might be expected to be in the instance where they were dreadful, scared-for-your-life-type injuries. (That doesn't mean the injuries were NOT that type - just that it's far from conclusive, or even indicative)

Right and the state will have to prove that he could not have reasonably thought he was in danger of death or serious bodily injury. It's also likely true that Martin likely would have been privileged to use deadly force as well. If I'm a gun manufacturer, that's a pretty good marketing strategy.

Thanks for the quick lesson on how the case will be tried

I agree mostly with the latter part though, and am fascinated with the jury's determination (WEIRD HUH).

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Understood.

Now, there's no mention of his role on the football team (he could've been JV or 3rd string kicker, for all we know), so all the talk (not on this site) making him out to be a brick wall with cat-like reflexes may not be true.

The reports I've seen say that Trayvon was ~6'0" and ~150-160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as being ~5'9" and ~240 pounds. If you don't think you can defend yourself (against someone smaller than you, no less), then 1) don't volunteer to be the sole neighborhood watchman in a community with an increasing crime rate and 2) don't pursue someone who you think could take you down.

(Ditto with your disclaimer, since we're all speculating )

Agreed

[SWTXBelle]

No grand jury:

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/...s_charged.html

"Now that Corey has decided against using a grand jury, the decision on whether to charge Zimmerman is hers alone. According to the AP, Florida law requires the use of grand juries in first-degree murder cases, but not for lesser charges."

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

No grand jury:

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/...s_charged.html

"Now that Corey has decided against using a grand jury, the decision on whether to charge Zimmerman is hers alone. According to the AP, Florida law requires the use of grand juries in first-degree murder cases, but not for lesser charges."

This makes some intuitive sense to me - I'm no expert in FL criminal law, but just from a more jury-oriented standpoint, 1st degree would be a tough row to hoe.

The cynical part of me might want to make further commentary on prosecutors "kicking down" charges to keep that all-important conviction rate high, as well, but we'll see how it goes.

[DrPhil]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

This is just an aside regarding stupid people. It has nothing to do with the incident and whether there will be an arrest and trial.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin?lite

This is just an aside regarding stupid people. It has nothing to do with the incident and whether there will be an arrest and trial.

Ugh I was hoping this wouldn't make national. Apparently those signs are really easy to hack into. Idiots. A lot of my friends saw it last night driving home from jobs and what not.

[DrPhil]

George Zimmerman sets up website to raise defense money.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...s-confirm?lite

Because he is (legally*) innocent until being proven (legally*) guilty, he deserves enough money for a strong defense. I just would not be the one donating to his defense.

*I do not know whether this has been discussed before but if a criminal suit is not possible or finds him not guilty, is a civil suit possible?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

*I do not know whether this has been discussed before but if a criminal suit is not possible or finds him not guilty, is a civil suit possible?

It's certainly possible, in that you can bring a suit in this kind of instance without much difficulty (assuming the case goes to criminal trial*).

However, (not legal advice or legal opinion) assuming Zimmerman is found innocent by way of an affirmative defense* (in this case, self defense) that would likely be fairly strong evidence for the jury in the civil case as well. The traditional "civil cases have a lower burden" (see: Simpson, OJ) would, in some ways, be flipped.

**This may not be the case though, since as far as I know, Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law is actually based on immunity from prosecution ... I'm assuming though that if the case goes to trial it will still be an affirmative defense.

(Note that "Stand Your Ground" also conveys immunity from civil action, so if criminal action is not possible on those grounds, then the answer is a pretty simple "No" although I'm sure there will be efforts otherwise)

[DaemonSeid]

Live now: Zimmerman Lawyers withdraw counsel


Going against the advice of lawyers may get you in trouble.

[LXA SE285]

Breaking on msnbc.com:

Fla. prosecutor to file criminal charges against George Zimmerman

[LXA SE285]

Zimmerman arrested:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...rtin-case?lite

[DaemonSeid]

About time