The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

But to defend yourself with lethal force against someone half your age and half your size? That's a bit much.

Size isn't everything.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Size isn't everything.

True, but if a lanky 13 year old walked past me, my first instinct would not be "kill it with fire"

But, as you and others have stated, hopefully all of this will get sorted out with the investigation(s).

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

True, but if a lanky 13 year old walked past me, my first instinct would not be "kill it with fire"

But, as you and others have stated, hopefully all of this will get sorted out with the investigation(s).

Martin was 17.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Martin was 17.

I thought Zimmerman was older, so I was referring to the "half my age" thing I said earlier. I didn't realize he was only 28.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

True, but if a lanky 13 year old walked past me, my first instinct would not be "kill it with fire"

He was a 17-year-old football player with a juvenile drug conviction in a neighborhood with a crime problem.

But, as you and others have stated, hopefully all of this will get sorted out with the investigation(s).

That's all I'm saying. Calling this thread, for example, "The Murder of Trayvon Martin" presumes an awful lot. There has been information released to the public which doesn't fit with that narrative and there seems to be information which corroborates Zimmerman's account of things.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I thought Zimmerman was older, so I was referring to the "half my age" thing I said earlier. I didn't realize he was only 28.

... which is additional evidence of Zimmerman's capabilities and strength, given 28 is the in the middle of one's physical prime.

He claims to have lost significant weight from his previous booking measurements of around 5'9-5'10 and 230 lbs, which would indicate exercise and (workout) training. Additionally, those with the inclination toward a neighborhood watch (including following a 'suspect' and potentially engaging that person, as is clear was Zimmerman's intent) would or should likely put themselves in a physical condition where they shouldn't be easily overpowered.

If you think a string-bean 17 year old could easily overpower somebody of that description, I'm fine with that. However, Zimmerman's actions and apparent lifestyle don't jibe with the story promoted through his family nor with the need to 'enhance' video to see his injuries.

That obviously doesn't mean he did or did not feel he was in actual and imminent danger. There are a lot of unanswered questions, and not a lot of ways to answer them.

[knight_shadow]

^^ You said what I was thinking much better than I did.

ETA: Kevin -- how would Zimmerman have known he was from an area in Miami with a drug problem just by looking at him?

[ZTAOnlytheBest]

Originally Posted by Kevin

He was a 17-year-old football player with a juvenile drug conviction in a neighborhood with a crime problem.

Everything I've read says he was not in any legal trouble, but was just suspended from school. And it was for having marijuana. I'm sorry but I just don't really see that as a big deal.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

He claims to have lost significant weight from his previous booking measurements of around 5'9-5'10 and 230 lbs, which would indicate exercise and (workout) training.

Having represented a fair number of folks facing time, especially those who haven't done time before, the prospect of incarceration hanging over one's head tends to be enough to cause significant stress-related weight loss. Considering Zimmerman's situation, the stress combined with the fact that if he's recognized by someone on the street, he might be killed, gives him a really good reason to lose weight.

Additionally, those with the inclination toward a neighborhood watch (including following a 'suspect' and potentially engaging that person, as is clear was Zimmerman's intent) would or should likely put themselves in a physical condition where they shouldn't be easily overpowered.

That assumes an awful lot. While we know Zimmerman pursued against the advice of the 911 operator, we don't know that he confronted or engaged at any time, do we?

If you think a string-bean 17 year old could easily overpower somebody of that description, I'm fine with that. However, Zimmerman's actions and apparent lifestyle don't jibe with the story promoted through his family nor with the need to 'enhance' video to see his injuries.

Zimmerman's surrogates didn't enhance the video (whatever that means). Fox did. Even if false, it couldn't be any worse than the NBC editors who edited the 911 call to cast Zimmerman in a false light.

That obviously doesn't mean he did or did not feel he was in actual and imminent danger. There are a lot of unanswered questions, and not a lot of ways to answer them.

Right and the state will have to prove that he could not have reasonably thought he was in danger of death or serious bodily injury. It's also likely true that Martin likely would have been privileged to use deadly force as well. If I'm a gun manufacturer, that's a pretty good marketing strategy.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

ETA: Kevin -- how would Zimmerman have known he was from an area in Miami with a drug problem just by looking at him?

I never said that. I said that Zimmerman's neighborhood, though gated, had recently had some crime.

As for the marijuana conviction, I do think that's relevant. I'm not suggesting reefer madness, but I am suggesting that someone who partakes in illegal narcotics is by definition someone who doesn't mind breaking the law when it suits them to.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I never said that. I said that Zimmerman's neighborhood, though gated, had recently had some crime.

OK, I see.

I read this...

Originally Posted by Kevin

He was a 17-year-old football player with a juvenile drug conviction in a neighborhood with a crime problem.

.. as "Trayvon had a drug conviction in his own high-crime neighborhood"

As for the marijuana conviction, I do think that's relevant. I'm not suggesting reefer madness, but I am suggesting that someone who partakes in illegal narcotics is by definition someone who doesn't mind breaking the law when it suits them to.

I can't seem to find it now, but I remember reading about Zimmerman's (violent) priors somewhere. If I wasn't imagining that, then that would be relevant as well.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

.. as "Trayvon had a drug conviction in his own high-crime neighborhood"

His drug conviction goes to his character, not the context in which Zimmerman would have observed him. Scofflaws (and if you smoke marijuana illegally, whether you think it's a good law or not, you're a scofflaw) are generally going to be more predisposed to violence.

The light Martin has been portrayed in this case by the media seems more about preserving the narrative than worrying about the truth.

But that's what we have criminal investigations for.

I can't seem to find it now, but I remember reading about Zimmerman's (violent) priors somewhere. If I wasn't imagining that, then that would be relevant as well.

How do you get "violent" priors from him pleading out to nonviolently resisting a police officer? I mean the name of the crime pretty much rules out what you're trying to impute to Zimmerman's character.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Kevin

How do you get "violent" priors from him pleading out to nonviolently resisting a police officer? I mean the name of the crime pretty much rules out what you're trying to impute to Zimmerman's character.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I can't seem to find it now, but I remember reading about Zimmerman's (violent) priors somewhere. If I wasn't imagining that, then that would be relevant as well.

Like I said, I can't find the article, but I seem to remember reading about priorS that were violent.

Of course, I'm not going to stand firmly behind something that I can't back up, but IF what I read was true (and not just someone posting shit all willy-nilly, which seems to be par for the course on both sides, in this incident), then it would be relevant.

[Kevin]

In 2006, he was charged with resisting an officer with violence. That was plead out to resisting an officer without violence. Only the plea goes to the jury and that's questionable as #1, I doubt Zimmerman would take the stand and #2, even if he does, that evidence may be excluded by the judge as being not very probative and overly prejudicial.

He and an ex-fiancée both filed restraining orders against the other in 2005 alleging domestic violence. I don't know what happened there, but it's not uncommon for folks to take out restraining orders with very little to base them on. As with much in this case, this proves absolutely nothing.

One article I read even tried to make a speeding ticket received 6 years ago as evidence of Zimmerman's violent nature. The emerging facts don't seem to fit the narrative and folks are grasping at straws.

Now the prosecutor may be sitting on some other evidence which changes everyone's mind, but at this point, there is no possible way that you could look at the evidence and be able to come to the conclusion that there is no way Zimmerman wasn't defending himself.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

But to defend yourself with lethal force against someone half your age and half your size? That's a bit much.

Just putting this out there, he was taller than Zimmerman and a football player.

I'm 31, 5'2, and a lot of pounds. If a 17 year old 5'0 gymnast came at me, they'd beat the shit out of me. Size sometimes doesn't matter. You'd think I could kick some ass, but I'm really weak as hell.

(Disclaimer: Still waiting for the trial, haven't convicted anyone in my mind yet. I still believe that not ALL details have been released to us, so I'm waiting to see what the courts and professionals say.)