The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[knight_shadow]

Let's try this again.

1. NO, Trayvon did not deserve to die because of his outfit.

2. YES, Geraldo was an idiot for saying that the outfit resulted in his death.

BUT

1. Taking Trayvon out of the picture, we all know that if you dress a certain way, people will perceive you a certain way.

If k_s walks past you on the street at night with a business suit and a briefcase, you will probably react differently than if k_s walked past you on the street in Timbs, a beater, and XXXL pants that are sagging. Does this mean that one k_s is better than the other? No, but it does mean that one k_s will be PERCEIVED a different way.

2. Geraldo is a media personality. He doesn't make money if nobody cares about what he has to say. To all the people who say "HOW DARE HE!? WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS!?" -- it's giving him headlines. It's making him relevant again.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

If k_s walks past you on the street at night with a business suit and a briefcase, you will probably react differently than if k_s walked past you on the street in Timbs, a beater, and XXXL pants that are sagging. Does this mean that one k_s is better than the other? No, but it does mean that one k_s will be PERCEIVED a different way.

And while I agree, sometimes regardless of what you wear, you can still be seen as a stereotype. You and I both know that.

Just because I am tall with dredds does not make me a basketball player from Jamaica who likes to smoke weed and been to jail.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Just because I am tall with dredds does not make me a basketball player from Jamaica who likes to smoke weed and been to jail.

Is your battle with the stereotype why you got mad at me years ago for singing Buffalo soldier, dredloc Rasta to you? LOL. That was funny as hell.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Is your battle with the stereotype why you got mad at me years ago for singing Buffalo soldier, dredloc Rasta to you? LOL. That was funny as hell.

It's the assumption that IMO is offensive.

I get/got it.

What really irks me, and understand where I am coming from, in some places, the islands (Jamaica and the Bahamas) the natives there automatically assume that I fit that stereotype.

Ok check this: JUST by looking at me


In the states, I am assumed that I can play basketball

In the islands, I am a weed smoker

In Europe, I am an artist or in a band.

In Africa, my hair is fake ( so many people wanted to touch my hair!!!!)




All of this is assumed before one talks to me to get to know me.

When me and my wife went to Israel, we were the last ones of our tour group to disembark from the boat and the first and only ones detained and patted down.

The only place where I traveled that we got no attention has been Canada. Go figure.

[Sadfly]

I haven't kept up with the specifics but I am curious.

Was that Trayvon's house in that neighborhood?

If not, why was he there?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Sadfly

I haven't kept up with the specifics but I am curious.

Was that Trayvon's house in that neighborhood?

If not, why was he there?

Pick any link on CNN or any other news site, or go back thru this thread, read the specifics and your questions will answer itself.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Is your battle with the stereotype why you got mad at me years ago for singing Buffalo soldier, dredloc Rasta to you? LOL. That was funny as hell.

LMAOOOOO!!!!!! Throwback!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

LMAOOOOO!!!!!! Throwback!

LOL. It was a perplexing back and forth.

I just finished watching Joe Oliver on Piers Morgan. I respect everyone's insight and respect the desire of those who love Zimmerman to speak out. However, it is no coincidence that Zimmerman's bestfriend who is appearing on all of these shows is a Black man. "Some of my bestfriends are Black."

Oliver discussed a number of things including how Zimmerman is not white as the news reported; that Zimmerman now has PTSD; and that Trayvon Martin was bigger than Zimmerman. I respect hearing every side of the story. I also look forward to this getting out of the court of public opinion and getting to an actual court.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I have a fear of Black men in dark streets PERIOD so I will be terrified of you even with the business suit. That business suit does not keep you from whooping my ass. In fact, where in the hell did you get your business suit, from a work release program or did you steal it from a white man?

Argggghhhh...I'm calling the po-po just in case!!!

I. Hate. You.

Oh and I agree with k_s and agzg simultaneously. In order to challenge the (mis)perceptions of others, you first have to acknowledge the fact that they are, in fact, present. You can't really get mad that they are there in the sense that it's a surprise to you. You can, however, be indignant and fight the stereotype. There is a time and place to do this of course. It is reasonable that dressing bummy to a sorority rush to "prove I'm still a worthy applicant even without the suit" will get you cut from the lot. It is not reasonable to assume that wearing a hoodie on the street "even though I'm not a thug" will get you shot. No one has the right to assume you are a thug or dangerous and, though it should be expected people will see that if you superficially "fit the bill," you should not have to deal with their prejudices and your safety certainly shouldn't be in jeopardy over it. I agree with both of you and think you are essentially saying the same thing on some level.

[DrPhil]

And if people insist on overstating this obvious point, we need to keep it honest. This is not a discussion of everyone dressing in the manner in which they want to be received. This is about minority groups dressing in the manner in which they want to be received even if that requires going above and beyond the call of duty (it typically does).

That is not a new concept. But turning this issue into a discussion of Black male attire is a delightful distraction that serves to go beyond precipitation and into victim blame. "If only he had not worn that" is based on a probably false assumption that Martin would not have been pursued had he not worn a hoodie. This story would have probably ended the same had he had an umbrella in the rain or without anything covering his head.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

I. Hate. You.

Oh and I agree with k_s and agzg simultaneously. In order to challenge the (mis)perceptions of others, you first have to acknowledge the fact that they are, in fact, present. You can't really get mad that they are there in the sense that it's a surprise to you. You can, however, be indignant and fight the stereotype. There is a time and place to do this of course. It is reasonable that dressing bummy to a sorority rush to "prove I'm still a worthy applicant even without the suit" will get you cut from the lot. It is not reasonable to assume that wearing a hoodie on the street "even though I'm not a thug" will get you shot. No one has the right to assume you are a thug or dangerous and, though it should be expected people will see that if you superficially "fit the bill," you should not have to deal with their prejudices and your safety certainly shouldn't be in jeopardy over it. I agree with both of you and think you are essentially saying the same thing on some level.

None of us as the right to assume, but, we all in our own ways do it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

If k_s walks past you on the street at night with a business suit and a briefcase, you will probably react differently than if k_s walked past you on the street in Timbs, a beater, and XXXL pants that are sagging. Does this mean that one k_s is better than the other? No, but it does mean that one k_s will be PERCEIVED a different way.

I have a fear of Black men in dark streets PERIOD so I will be terrified of you even with the business suit. That business suit does not keep you from whooping my ass. In fact, where in the hell did you get your business suit, from a work release program or did you steal it from a white man?

Argggghhhh...I'm calling the po-po just in case!!!

[agzg]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

If k_s walks past you on the street at night with a business suit and a briefcase, you will probably react differently than if k_s walked past you on the street in Timbs, a beater, and XXXL pants that are sagging. Does this mean that one k_s is better than the other? No, but it does mean that one k_s will be PERCEIVED a different way.

Sure, perceived, fine. But shouldn't perceptions be challenged? Changing your appearance to fit what you think would make a white man more comfortable (keeping in mind that white Justin Bieber is not perceived the same in the exact same outfit) strikes me as counter intuitive - why not go about your business being a k_ass while wearing whatever you want to wear in your off time?

Clearly it's complicated. I just don't think it can be boiled down to "don't wear hoodies or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." If no black men wore hoodies, and they all wore suits, how long until it becomes "don't wear suits or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." Maybe it's an oversimplification on my part, but part of the message of "don't wear hoodies" is "don't be any color but white."

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by agzg

Sure, perceived, fine. But shouldn't perceptions be challenged? Changing your appearance to fit what you think would make a white man more comfortable (keeping in mind that white Justin Bieber is not perceived the same in the exact same outfit) strikes me as counter intuitive - why not go about your business being a k_ass while wearing whatever you want to wear in your off time?

Clearly it's complicated. I just don't think it can be boiled down to "don't wear hoodies or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." If no black men wore hoodies, and they all wore suits, how long until it becomes "don't wear suits or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." Maybe it's an oversimplification on my part, but part of the message of "don't wear hoodies" is "don't be any color but white."

Well, when I see white young men with the hood of their hoodie up (when it isn't cold or raining) and sagging pants, I always think "He looks like a police artist sketch of a wanted guy" It really doesn't matter what color he is when he's dressed like that to me. It's a "thug" look and anybody wearing it is going to be assumed to be a thug to me. Is that right? Probably not. I have noticed a difference in how I'm treated by salespeople in a store based on what I'm wearing. If I'm in jeans and a sweatshirt or t-shirt, they ignore me. If I'm shopping after work in a suit, I get lots of attention.

Not that anybody ever deserves to be killed over what they're wearing.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

Sure, perceived, fine. But shouldn't perceptions be challenged?

Challenging stereotypes/power structures/etc. often results in things like "dead kids" though ... I think, in that regard, we're speaking past each other.