Does a shorter associate program lead to more drop-outs?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by itb2a

The colleges/Greek Life offices tend to have more sway over greek eligibility. Because more colleges are funding house expansion/building, they feel that they have standing to influence pledgings as well; after all, why not make sure that the house can repay the college's funding?

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HQWest

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).

Originally Posted by HQWest

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).



It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Hey you asked - I answered.

If you want to spend your whole life thinking about nothing but recruitment then by all means come up with whatever crazy deferred recruitment you want or you can do recruitment within the first couple months of school starting (a la Ole Miss or Cal) get it over with and spend the rest of the school year on all of the reasons people wanted to be Greek in the first place.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HQWest

Hey you asked - I answered.

Actually, I asked itb2a. He/she didn't seem to be talking about deferred rush.

Originally Posted by HQWest

If you want to spend your whole life thinking about nothing but recruitment then by all means come up with whatever crazy deferred recruitment you want or you can do recruitment within the first couple months of school starting (a la Ole Miss or Cal) get it over with and spend the rest of the school year on all of the reasons people wanted to be Greek in the first place.

You honestly think that's how it works? That sorority members at, say, SMU spend all of fall semester doing nothing but planning for rush, practicing for rush, talking about rush, thinking about rush?

The clue store is open till 2 every night. Please, for the love of all that's holy, pay a visit.

[KSUViolet06]

For what it's worth here, every school I work with in my volunteer role has deferred recruitment (second semester.)

All fall semester isn't spent prepping for FR. Prepping tends to start around the middle of Octoberish, and it definitely doesn't consume the entire sorority experience any more than having fall recruitment does. They still have and enjoy the same fall activities as every other school (Homecoming, date parties, etc.)

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

I think deferred recruitment is a dandy idea, as does 33girl, welcome to our vocal minority Whether later in a semester, spread out over a few weekends from one semester or quarter into the next, students coming back early after the New Year, it would vary for each campus. I see chapter housing facilities as driving a lot of this, and though they are great, they are also an albatross around the neck of many a chapter when there aren't enough members to pay the bills.

If there is an insistence on rush and joining before sitting in a class room, then don't allow new members to move in right away and live on campus (which many schools require). Meeting other people, having a space away from the chapter for reflection or to take a break, making friends who live in your hall (who could be potential future members) as well as having a support system and friends in the event one decides Greek Life isn't for them, some people outside the system including an RA who aren't members and may see warning signs or be able to report hazing, and so many more reasons play into my support of deferred recruitment.

Maybe if new members didn't move in right away and weren't isolated we could go back to longer new member periods to assuage the ideas of hazing since non-Greeks are living with freshmen. I also think that moving in right away may deepen or widen the schism between those who join and those who don't. I'm a huge supporter of waiting for semester or quarter grades to initiate and letting people get their bearings as I've seen plenty of kids fail first semester, get a waiver and be on academic and chapter probation, do it again, and leave school at the end of the first year.

If we're really life long organizations then waiting a semester is not going to hurt us in the long run. People say "we have to get them before they join other stuff!" but that makes me feel like we can't let our organizations stand on their own and let people get to know us and be sure they want to join for a life time by making educated and informed decisions. All groups have alumnae who have had no contact since graduation and maybe they were burnt out or it wasn't important to them, but if we're going to "keep rushing our pledges" we should keep rushing our alumnae as well.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

One of the big issues is that it doesn't work on campuses where you have to sign housing contracts in the fall. In Champaign, if you wanted a good apartment, you had to sign a lease by October or so for the following year.

We have recruitment before classes start, and all freshman are required to live on campus so those who receive bids move in on Bid Day and the women who don't complete the process are guaranteed campus housing. Including Greek Chapter Facilities as housing for freshman men and women is not something many schools allow. Students who are interested in Greek Life are told to not sign housing contracts, which includes non-freshman students as moving in right away is expected and often required. Currently Delta Zeta is based in a Residence Hall, but when there is "overflow" women's chapters often have sisters live in a residence hall as a group and rotate in and out of the house, or upperclasswomen will move out of the facility to make space for freshmen/new members as finding off campus lodging in Moscow is not a problem.

Our nearby neighbors at Washington State University require freshmen to live on campus and for men have approved living facilities, women move into the dorms. Some are able to move into the chapters between semesters but many move in as sophomores. We're also alike as we have sleeping porches (cold dorms to some) so there is some flexibility for some chapters of how many people live in to pay the bills to comfortable space, to a rush hour train in Tokyo. Often women who join through informal recruitment will be expected and/or required to move into the house as soon as their lease or housing contract is up, and some chapters would financially help a woman who broke a lease or housing contract as the money will be recouped with her living in and being a full dues paying member. To be honest I think that practice is fading into the distance as chapters were robust enough that we opened for expansion and Delta Zeta became a colony.

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

One of the big issues is that it doesn't work on campuses where you have to sign housing contracts in the fall. In Champaign, if you wanted a good apartment, you had to sign a lease by October or so for the following year.