The Confederate Flag

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Is there truly a conflicting positive connotation or only conflicting for the Christians who want to stand by Christianity? What makes this so different than what the supporters of the Confederacy and Confederate symbols say about the positive connotations in their contexts?

I should have specified that I'm referring only to public displays. Confederate Flags do have positive connotations within the group of people who fly them. However, there is no conflict when flown publicly.

It only carries very different symbolism for those who only identify the cross and Christianity as positive. For those who do not, seeing that cross is like a flashback to the missionaries who were "here to help" but did much more than "help."

My point is that the meaning can change and people can accept their own conflicting opinions about symbols.

No, Christians will keep our religious privilege as the largest religion in the world and not be careful about where we display our symbols around the world.

Then, these people are neither reasonable nor empathetic. I personally know Christians who use Christian symbols in an aggressive way not only to set themselves apart, but also to keep people at a distance.

From a theological standpoint, I don't appreciate the overuse and lack of reverence for the cross among American Christians. How many crosses are sold on a t-shirt or necklace in this country? Why do this if not to show "pride" in one's faith or to make a statement? I'm certainly not an iconoclast and I do reverence icons in the Orthodox Church (where only Priests and Bishops tend to wear crosses).

Somewhat off-topic, I would venture to say that the closest modern-day equivalent to the cross in the ancient world is a lynching rope. The cross represented utter dehumanization and was reserved for the so-called criminals that didn't "deserve" a fair trial.

How disgustingly ironic that Christians have marched behind the cross on their way to subjugating and dehumanizing entire civilizations.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

My point is that the meaning can change and people can accept their own conflicting opinions about symbols.

Then, these people are neither reasonable nor empathetic. I personally know Christians who use Christian symbols in an aggressive way not only to set themselves apart, but also to keep people at a distance.

From a theological standpoint, I don't appreciate the overuse and lack of reverence for the cross among American Christians. How many crosses are sold on a t-shirt or necklace in this country? Why do this if not to show "pride" in one's faith or to make a statement? I'm certainly not an iconoclast and I do reverence icons in the Orthodox Church (where only Priests and Bishops tend to wear crosses).

Somewhat off-topic, I would venture to say that the closest modern-day equivalent to the cross in the ancient world is a lynching rope. The cross represented utter dehumanization and was reserved for the so-called criminals that didn't "deserve" a fair trial.

How disgustingly ironic that Christians have marched behind the cross on their way to subjugating and dehumanizing entire civilizations.

Then you agree with my point. And you know that there is no substantive difference between discussing religious symbols versus other symbols like the Confederate Flag. People believe in what they believe in and will justify their belief no matter what. People will assert that there is more positive than negative to their beliefs.

Therefore, there can be a problem with telling people that their beliefs and the symbol itself are inherently and uncontextually flawed, and their belief in it makes them not only privileged but a bigot. There are people who would say the same to me when I wear my Jesus tshirt and Ichthys/Jesus fish bracelet. Many of these people would also call me a lost and foolish Black person for acknowledging the negatives, that began during Jesus' movement and throughout history, and choosing to allow the positive to outweigh the negative.

The Confederate Flag (which is associated with whiteness and white privilege) is considered a sign of power, privilege, and domination and Christianity (which is linked to the white diaspora) is a sign of power, privilege, and domination around the world.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then you agree with my point. And you know that there is no substantive difference between discussing religious symbols versus other symbols like the Confederate Flag. People believe in what they believe in and will justify their belief no matter what. People will assert that there is more positive than negative to their beliefs.

Therefore, there can be a problem with telling people that their beliefs and the symbol itself is inherently and uncontextually flawed, and their belief in it makes them not only privileged but a bigot. There are people who would say the same to me when I wear my Jesus tshirt and Ichthys/Jesus fish bracelet. Many of these people would also call me a lost and foolish Black person for acknowledging the negatives, that began during Jesus' movement and throughout history, and choosing to allow the positive to outweigh the negative.

I never disagreed that there is no substantive difference between discussing religious symbols and other symbols. Regarding the subject of this conversation, I grew up believing that Christian symbols were good and Confederate Flags were good.

Now I believe that Christian (along with other other religious) symbols are tainted, but they are accepted as more positive or more negative depending on the context, when displayed publicly. And, I believe that the Confederate Flag no longer carries a positive connotation, when displayed publicly.

Regardless of the symbol itself, my real concern is the purpose of public display. If the purpose is to be instigative, why do it?

All symbols are controversial on some level, whether superficial or deeply embedded. So, my question is always going to be the deepest level of "why" when it comes to the reasoning behind the public display of symbols.

ETA: The test of an instigator is their reaction to negativity expressed toward a particular symbol. If they take it down and put it somewhere private, I'm good. If they leave it up or do what the woman in the article did, we have a problem.

[DrPhil]

Got your point now, cool. I thought you were disagreeing based on the belief that the origins and foundation of the Christian symbols (you said positive and neutral) differed from the origins and foundation of the Confederate Flag.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

So, my question is always going to be the deepest level of "why" when it comes to the reasoning behind the public display of symbols.

The easy response is "this is our belief...don't keep us from being outwardly proud of our beliefs."

Even if someone said "I want to assert my beliefs even if it pisses people off," that has also been an acceptable response for group interactions. It is just like phrases like "I will not be silenced;" "sometimes you have to make some enemies to get to the top"; or "stand by your beliefs regardless of who doesn't like it."

The woman in this story was being a white privileged instigator in an environment where she is the population minority. Are there other instances where being the lone voice is acceptable? Sure...but who determines that?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I thought you were disagreeing based on the belief that the origins and foundation of the Christian symbols (you said positive and neutral) differed from the origins and foundation of the Confederate Flag.

It's a lot more complex than that.

Even if someone said "I want to assert my beliefs even if it pisses people off," that has also been an acceptable response for group interactions. It is just like phrases like "I will not be silenced;" "sometimes you have to make some enemies to get to the top"; or "stand by your beliefs regardless of who doesn't like it."

It's not as problematic for someone to make a statement with a symbol when that symbol has not be used to oppress or demonstrate hatred/violence. Both the Confederate Flags and Christian symbols have been used for terrible things. People need to know how damaging it is to a community to display these symbols when they are not regarded in a positive light.

Other symbols may be controversial, but they have not been used oppress or demonstrate hatred/violence. The LGBT Flag comes to mind.

ETA: My perspective is, of course, skewed by my problems with both whiteness and Christianity.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

It's a lot more complex than that.

Yes, that's why I responded as I did.