The Confederate Flag

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by *winter*

So...I've thought about it, and I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) I guess I assume people in general are always more pleasant in the south and more confrontational in the north, which leads to point 2...

2) I have a very skewed world view!

As for the entire issue of what Northerners think of the CF and why...pondering this on the way home from work...where I'm passed by a lifted old Ford truck- giant tires, gun rack, swerving in and out of lanes aggressively- and, you guessed it- sporting a CF decorative plate! THIS is the image we come to associate with those who use the flag. Thing is, growing up in a city, I never really saw CFs until I went awayto college. And then, they were never flying proud in front of a nicely manicured split level ranch...but posted next to signs like "Insured by Smith & Wesson"'and "Redneck and Proud!". Really...around here, that is the typical CF fan. So we tend to associate them with such folks.

After living in the South in the military, and working with a diverse group of people, I've come to understand the fact that it's seen differently in the south. Normal people fly it as a symbol of their heritage.

It's just (and sadly, too) gotten a terrible rap around here due to all those who use it simply as a form of showing pride in the wrong things. It also intimidates minorities because of that association. Whenever I do field visits with other staff members, the non white ones start to get nervous when they spot a few in the country. Which brings me to my next point- these jokers give ALL rural people a bad name- many of the non-white field staff members were very unsure about visiting my county field area because of all the heresy that "those people are racist." when I got them out and meeting people, they realized what everyone does- the majority of small town PA people are not imbred hateful people, but just normal folks who have problems and are glad to accept some assistance with them, regardless of the race of the engineer.

People like that just screw it up for everyone.

This.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

2. The relative few white people who do live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods have their Black Card Cliff Notes and have a general idea what to do and what not to do.

iLaughed.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The thing is, as Dr. Phil says, many of us have explained it so many times in so many threads (and elsewhere in life), that we literally grow weary of it. I'm sorry if it comes across as a cop-out, but there it is.

As for the "mentality" comment, what you said was:
Sorry, but that doesn't sound at all to me like someone who really wants to understand. If it is an expression of wanting to understand, it's worded in a very loaded way -- less "help me understand" and more "defend your obviously wrong actions!" Might as well ask if we're still beating our wives as well.

Fair enough on both counts. How about this... I will refrain from making any more judgments or statements about Southern pride until I properly educate myself on the topic. Sounds like that should have been an obvious decision that I should have made beforehand but I'll admit that I've always seen this as a very black and white / good v. evil situation. I'm serious when I say that I'm mentally admonishing myself for taking such a narrow view.

[ASTalumna06]

I know I'm late to the party, but I have a few things to add..

I live in the North. I always have. So this is purely a northern perspective. I might be ignorant to some ideas of the South (yes, I'll admit that), but it's simply because of my own experiences.. or lack thereof.

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

Yes..but not really. The reason being is this:

Originally Posted by *winter*

As for the entire issue of what Northerners think of the CF and why...pondering this on the way home from work...where I'm passed by a lifted old Ford truck- giant tires, gun rack, swerving in and out of lanes aggressively- and, you guessed it- sporting a CF decorative plate! THIS is the image we come to associate with those who use the flag.
...

It's just (and sadly, too) gotten a terrible rap around here due to all those who use it simply as a form of showing pride in the wrong things. It also intimidates minorities because of that association.

And TV and movies don't help.

I understand that not all Southerners who fly the flag mean it in a negative way, but I can't get on board with waving it proudly... and definitely not up here. It's viewed differently here. Period. It's not that we don't understand.. it's not that we look at ALL southerners as racist... but we've been up North, living our non-Confederate-flag-waving lives, and we've generally been taught that it's an evil thing.

Flags and symbols represent many things.. pride, beliefs, morals, values, etc. of countries, organizations, religions, etc. While the Holocaust and Civil War might not be comparable - and even if they are, I don't want to compare them now - there is one thing that they definitely share; each had a flag/symbol that in one way or another, represented something negative (even if not in its entirety). Not everyone in the whole world views the swastika as something negative, and the same goes for the Confederate flag. However, a good portion of the population does.

For me personally, if I had any kind of symbol or flag plastered across my bumper sticker, or flying out in front of my house, and I thought it might offend a mass group of people, I'd take it down. Hell, I wouldn't put it up in the first place.

My follow-up question is: I know that you in the South can't speak for EVERYONE, but what is your perspective of how minorities in the South feel about it?

[thetaj]

I agree with not waving it in the North lol. It means two completely different things. I feel like in the South the flag does not at all represent the Civil War in any way, especially for my generation.

As far as how minorities view it: The population in the South has a very strong representation of minorities. I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends. I've seen several giant ones flying along major interstates! I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North, and I feel like that sheds a lot of light on the bass-akwards Southern stereotype.

It just means we're proud to be from the South. I know I am! But I don't fly a flag about it because it's kind of an eye-roller. Not because I think my neighbors would think I'm a racist.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North.

Why? If you don't mind my asking.

We don't see it flown anywhere except, as we've already pointed out, on the trucks of redneck racists (generally). The places we usually see it most often is on movie screens, representing those rednecks.. or in history books, surrounded by the word 'slavery.'

Personally, I wonder how anyone in the north could view it positively.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends.

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy.

They brought it up right after lunch.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

They brought it up right after lunch.

I can never trust YOU PEOPLE to take good minutes.

*throwing a fried chitterling at the screen*

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

Understandable. But like I can say, "In the North, we generally feel this way because of this, that and the other thing," I thought someone might be able to answer my question for me. But I can see how the two are different for the reasons you've stated.

However, if minorities as a whole felt a certain way and spoke openly about something they were against, it's not exactly like it would be a new concept. I just didn't know if that was the case. Again, part of my lack of Southern knowledge

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I can never trust YOU PEOPLE to take good minutes.

*throwing a fried chitterling at the screen*

iDied at the image of a lone chitlin (not spelling it correctly, since I take bad minutes) hitting my computer screen lol

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Understandable. But like I can say, "In the North, we generally feel this way because of this, that and the other thing," I thought someone might be able to answer my question for me. But I can see how the two are different for the reasons you've stated.

Read my very first paragraph again.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

However, if minorities as a whole felt a certain way and spoke openly about something they were against, it's not exactly like it would be a new concept. I just didn't know if that was the case. Again, part of my lack of Southern knowledge

I do not know what this paragraph means.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I do not know what this paragraph means.

In other words, if there was any kind of "outrage" in the South over the flag being flown, I wouldn't know... hence why the question was asked.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

In other words, if there was any kind of "outrage" over the flag being flown, I wouldn't know... hence why the question was asked.

Are we in the same thread? LOL. What do you think this thread is about?

I hope you all now see why people like MysticCat get tired of explaining stuff on either side(s) of the issue. LOL.

[honeychile]

This is why I mentioned not causing your neighbor to sin. My one neighbor flies an Italian flag, and what gets to me is that it's flown higher than the American flag.

I would not fly a Confederate flag, out of respect for those who would be offended. The pride I have in my heritage is how I live, not what I fly.

Don't even get me started about the flags I've seen in Chicago!