The Confederate Flag

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Or, to flip it - do people in the South honestly believe that people from the North should associate the rebel flag with something other than racism/slavery/abasement of non-whites? Because that's essentially the same question.

^^^this

[33girl]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

No, I believe that's why the majority of people in the North (who have no ties to the South or the Confederacy) fly the rebel flag. I have no idea why people in the South do it.

And everything in winter's post above. So if she's skewed, I'm skewed too. It seems like in the last 2 decades or so, people from the rural areas around here seem to want to wallow in the worst stereotypes of it, whereas before they aspired to something better. There's a difference between being proud of where you're from and acting like it gives you a license to be an uneducated ignoramus.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

I think it totally depends on who is flying it. I'm sure some people fly it out of general "Southern pride" and aren't racists or rebels. At the same time, regardless of who flys it, I think the use of that flag is a mistake. It's a big middle finger to the whole world because it's a flag that was used to represent 1) people who engaged in treason/revolution against the United States and 2) by the Klan and 3) segregationists. I think if you fly it, you're telling the whole world that you are perfectly happy to be identified with those groups.

If someone flies a red flag with a yellow hammer and crescent on it, I tend to believe that they have some sympathy for communists.

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

[DrPhil]

I'm so excited that my thread made Tom Earp post. Woohoo!!!!!!

[thetaj]

I agree with not waving it in the North lol. It means two completely different things. I feel like in the South the flag does not at all represent the Civil War in any way, especially for my generation.

As far as how minorities view it: The population in the South has a very strong representation of minorities. I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends. I've seen several giant ones flying along major interstates! I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North, and I feel like that sheds a lot of light on the bass-akwards Southern stereotype.

It just means we're proud to be from the South. I know I am! But I don't fly a flag about it because it's kind of an eye-roller. Not because I think my neighbors would think I'm a racist.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North.

Why? If you don't mind my asking.

We don't see it flown anywhere except, as we've already pointed out, on the trucks of redneck racists (generally). The places we usually see it most often is on movie screens, representing those rednecks.. or in history books, surrounded by the word 'slavery.'

Personally, I wonder how anyone in the north could view it positively.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends.

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy.

They brought it up right after lunch.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

They brought it up right after lunch.

I can never trust YOU PEOPLE to take good minutes.

*throwing a fried chitterling at the screen*

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I can never trust YOU PEOPLE to take good minutes.

*throwing a fried chitterling at the screen*

iDied at the image of a lone chitlin (not spelling it correctly, since I take bad minutes) hitting my computer screen lol

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

Understandable. But like I can say, "In the North, we generally feel this way because of this, that and the other thing," I thought someone might be able to answer my question for me. But I can see how the two are different for the reasons you've stated.

However, if minorities as a whole felt a certain way and spoke openly about something they were against, it's not exactly like it would be a new concept. I just didn't know if that was the case. Again, part of my lack of Southern knowledge

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Understandable. But like I can say, "In the North, we generally feel this way because of this, that and the other thing," I thought someone might be able to answer my question for me. But I can see how the two are different for the reasons you've stated.

Read my very first paragraph again.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

However, if minorities as a whole felt a certain way and spoke openly about something they were against, it's not exactly like it would be a new concept. I just didn't know if that was the case. Again, part of my lack of Southern knowledge

I do not know what this paragraph means.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I do not know what this paragraph means.

In other words, if there was any kind of "outrage" in the South over the flag being flown, I wouldn't know... hence why the question was asked.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Correct. Our last "Black People Meeting" didn't address how all Black people should feel about and respond to images of the Confederacy. Yet, there is a general understanding of what the Confederacy symbolizes to the average person of the African Diaspora (not just Black Americans), agree or disagree.

Two things have always and will always be the case: "some of my bestfriends are Black" and "the Black people I know don't seem to mind" have been cliche' for generations. One thing to remember is that with the structure of segregation and social exclusion across the country (including the north), the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group. Why? For one, it tends to require much less explanation to those who don't understand and don't get it. There are instances where people will share heartfelt opinions and issues to people outside of their racial and ethnic group. But, that is a very careful process because even the best interracial friendships can be made uncomfortable by such discussions. That is why you will hear people (predominantly white people) say things like "I don't see you as Black, you're just Lauren" or "we come together and don't see race." Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

If I had a dollar for everytime a white person said or did something that I considered racially offensive, rooted in privilege and power dynamics, and/or displayed racialized symbols that can be interpreted in different ways. If I had a dollar for everytime I had to ignore these things as to not lose a professional opportunity, be branded as the "angry Black woman," or have the police knocking at my door.

Lol at the "Black People Meeting." I totally agree with this but also I've always thought that most Black Southerners (born and bred, especially older folks) express less opposition (at least publicly) to certain things because they are so used to certain things as the norm and also at least some are still stuck in a "stay in your place" mentality where they know not to rock the boat or rock it too much for fear of consequence. Although I'm from the North, I have family still in the South and when hearing about present day stories/incidents from them and asking them why is this? why is that? the answers are usually very sort of on the "that's just the way it is" level, but not that it's okay. Of course, the conversation usually ends with me saying something like..."I wouldn't live there if I had to put up with that!" So the bottom line is, I think that when you're used to certain things and have accepted them as the norm because you feel there is nothing you can do to change it (and it's been a certain way for years and years and you've decided to pick your battles carefully), you might have a less aggressive reaction to something (at least publicly) as opposed to those that aren't used to it at all. Hence the reason why some/many Black Northerners tend to have a much stronger reaction to some things such as some Blacks in the South still accepting the word "colored." A colleague of mine called me "colored" one day and I had to teach her an up North lesson. She is from the South but I still say she should've known better since she's lived up here for so long. She said that she and her family always talk like that but are not racist. It goes back to some Southerners (and others) being just plain insensitive. Just because your neighbors don't say anything, it doesn't mean they are okay with things.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Lol at the "Black People Meeting." I totally agree with this but also I've always thought that most Black Southerners (born and bred, especially older folks) express less opposition (at least publicly) to certain things because they are so used to certain things as the norm and also at least some are still stuck in a "stay in your place" mentality where they know not to rock the boat or rock it too much for fear of consequence. Although I'm from the North, I have family still in the South and when hearing about present day stories/incidents from them and asking them why is this? why is that? the answers are usually very sort of on the "that's just the way it is" level, but not that it's okay. Of course, the conversation usually ends with me saying something like..."I wouldn't live there if I had to put up with that!" So the bottom line is, I think that when you're used to certain things and have accepted them as the norm because you feel there is nothing you can do to change it (and it's been a certain way for years and years and you've decided to pick your battles carefully), you might have a less aggressive reaction to something (at least publicly) as opposed to those that aren't used to it at all. Hence the reason why some/many Black Northerners tend to have a much stronger reaction to some things such as some Blacks in the South still accepting the word "colored." A colleague of mine called me "colored" one day and I had to teach her an up North lesson. She is from the South but I still say she should've known better since she's lived up here for so long. She said that she and her family always talk like that but are not racist. It goes back to some Southerners (and others) being just plain insensitive. Just because your neighbors don't say anything, it doesn't mean they are okay with things.

Yes. "This is how things have always been" often means "I will let these people act how they act and just discuss this later with my friends and family."

I too would correct a nonBlack person who called me "colored." There are other comments and behaviors that are worth ignoring as to not drive myself crazy.