Etiquette!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I still call the men I knew as a child as Mr. First Name. It's the culture of the portion of the South where I was raised. I even call my FIL Mr. FN and my husband calls my father the same. We do the same with women...Ms. FN. It's a sign of respect that never goes out of style like "ma'am" and "sir".

Thanks for this. It's a reminder that the South isn't monolithic, even as to things like this. Around here, Mr. FN would, as I said, be limited mostly to friends of one's parents (or perhaps men in a particular setting, like church), and somewhere in the 13-15 year-old-range, the "Mr." part tends to get dropped. I don't think I've ever heard anyone address their in-laws that way -- people here tend to either simply use first names or something like "mom" and "dad." (That's what my parents did; their own parents were "Mother" and "Daddy.")

And I totally agree about "ma'am" and "sir."

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Thanks for this. It's a reminder that the South isn't monolithic, even as to things like this. Around here, Mr. FN would, as I said, be limited mostly to friends of one's parents (or perhaps men in a particular setting, like church), and somewhere in the 13-15 year-old-range, the "Mr." part tends to get dropped. I don't think I've ever heard anyone address their in-laws that way -- people here tend to either simply use first names or something like "mom" and "dad." (That's what my parents did; their own parents were "Mother" and "Daddy.")

And I totally agree about "ma'am" and "sir."

Yeah, it's funny how different things can be state to state or even town to town. I'm trying to think what my parent's called my grandparents. I think it was Mr. and Ms. LN! I can't recall my mother EVER calling my grandmother by her FN.

[aopirose]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Thanks for this. It's a reminder that the South isn't monolithic, even as to things like this. Around here, Mr. FN would, as I said, be limited mostly to friends of one's parents (or perhaps men in a particular setting, like church), and somewhere in the 13-15 year-old-range, the "Mr." part tends to get dropped. I don't think I've ever heard anyone address their in-laws that way -- people here tend to either simply use first names or something like "mom" and "dad." (That's what my parents did; their own parents were "Mother" and "Daddy.")

And I totally agree about "ma'am" and "sir."

It took me a good 3 years before I could call my MIL by her FN. She had been encouraging it since I met her, but it felt really odd.

Funny story...

We have two sets of neighbors that moved here from the Pacific Northwest. The first set has been here for about 3 years and the other since July. The two families were friends prior to their moves.

We were all over at another neighbor’s, when the 5-y.o. of the first family came in. She went straight to the food table. The mom of the second family asked if she would like something to eat. The child replied, “Yes, ma’am, Miss Mary. May I please have a hotdog?” The woman’s eyes got as large as beach balls and proceeded to drop the serving spoon and her jaw. The child’s mom smiled proudly and said, “Yes, my daughter is now a ‘Belle’.” It was the funniest thing that I had seen in a long time.

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Look at the context of the question:
AOII Angel is answering the question specifically in the Southern context. In my (Southern) experience, Mr. First Name is a very common way for children (up to about15 or 16) to address the adult male friends of their parents and perhaps certain other men. I rarely hear an adult use it.

It doesn't work quite the same way as Miss First Name though. Miss First Name has always been a common way for a person of any age to refer to or address an older woman. (Miss, in this context by the way, has nothing to do with marital status. My grandmother and her sister, one married and one widowed, were widely known as Miss Mary and Miss Suzie 'til the day they died.) I have to say, though, that it is dying out.

Actually, I was answering the posting from a very SOUTHERN point of view. The practice under discussion is in my experience all but extinct in other areas of the USA. It survives largely in the UK and among the traditional families in the deep South. The 'rules' to which I referred are those in use in New Orleans and other tradition minded Southern localities with which I have had direct experience.
Any male past the age of ten or eleven would not address an adult male not related to him as Mr. John - ever. If related or (rarely) if a family friend of many years standing and great closeness one might use the honorific 'Uncle John' or 'Aunt Alice'. Girls might use the honorific Uncle or Aunt a bit longer but that also is rapidly dieing out except in really die hard families or groups.
Overall, this form of address is strictly bound by 'rules' and not generally bestowed on everyone lest it become a parody of "The Old South" or an affectation.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Actually, I was answering the posting from a very SOUTHERN point of view. The practice under discussion is in my experience all but extinct in other areas of the USA. It survives largely in the UK and among the traditional families in the deep South. The 'rules' to which I referred are those in use in New Orleans and other tradition minded Southern localities with which I have had direct experience.

Then I have to say (1) it was a Southern point of fairly unrecognizable to this Southerner (but see disclaimer below), and (2) it's interesting that in answering from a "very Southern" point of view, you mentioned the UK and the US in general but didn't ever mention the South. Frankly, it came across to me as reflecting a more English and/or a self-consciously aristocratic perspective. References to "servants" and phrases like "traditional families" reinforce that perception for me.

And while I'd never deny that New Orleans is indeed Southern, it and the surrounding Gulf Coast have a unique Southern culture that doesn't necessarily correspond to broader Southern culture. Disclaimer: But, as we've said, Southern culture is not the monolithic thing some like to make it, so the experience of two Southerners can vary widely.

Any male past the age of ten or eleven would not address an adult male not related to him as Mr. John - ever. If related or (rarely) if a family friend of many years standing and great closeness one might use the honorific 'Uncle John' or 'Aunt Alice'. Girls might use the honorific Uncle or Aunt a bit longer but that also is rapidly dieing out except in really die hard families or groups.

I know more than a few males past the age of ten or eleven (one is in college) who address me as Mr My-First-Name. I know many olders boys who address their Scoutmasters or men they know at church this way, so I think you're shooting too broadly to say that that it would not happen "ever."

As for "Aunt" (and to a lesser exent, "Uncle"). One still hears "Aunt" used for family friends this way around here with some frequency -- my children know my wife's best friend as "Aunt FN." (Actually, my son often calls her "Aunt-FN-Who's-Not-Our-Real-Aunt.") It's also a common way to address godparents around here.

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Overall, this form of address is strictly bound by 'rules' and not generally bestowed on everyone lest it become a parody of "The Old South" or an affectation.

Again, my experience of 50 years in my particular corner of the South differs from your experience.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Actually, I was answering the posting from a very SOUTHERN point of view. The practice under discussion is in my experience all but extinct in other areas of the USA. It survives largely in the UK and among the traditional families in the deep South. The 'rules' to which I referred are those in use in New Orleans and other tradition minded Southern localities with which I have had direct experience.
Any male past the age of ten or eleven would not address an adult male not related to him as Mr. John - ever. If related or (rarely) if a family friend of many years standing and great closeness one might use the honorific 'Uncle John' or 'Aunt Alice'. Girls might use the honorific Uncle or Aunt a bit longer but that also is rapidly dieing out except in really die hard families or groups.
Overall, this form of address is strictly bound by 'rules' and not generally bestowed on everyone lest it become a parody of "The Old South" or an affectation.

And you would be incorrect since these manners are very much still in effect by men and women throughout Louisiana. No parody is involved. I lived in three corners of the state, was raised in Baton Rouge, married a man that was raised in Monroe and can honestly say that this is the straight forward, honest way of speaking. You may not have this experience but to suggest that it is NOT the norm anywhere is ridiculous as if you have been everywhere.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yeah, it's funny how different things can be state to state or even town to town. I'm trying to think what my parent's called my grandparents. I think it was Mr. and Mrs. LN! I can't recall my mother EVER calling my grandmother by her FN.

My paternal grandparents have both passed away, but my mother always referred to them as "Mr and Mrs LN;" I believe my father does that now with my grandparents--even though they've known each other for 40 years! It seems terribly formal!

I wasn't raised to call another adult "Miss FN," even though my parents were born and raised in the South, of Southern parents. I think my parents felt it sounded a little servanty (for lack of a better word), we just said "Mr or Mrs. LN." My niece and her friends call their friends' parents Miss FN, and it seems to work for them. It's informal without being disrespectful.

[VandalSquirrel]

I'm from the biggest dirty hippy town of all time (San Francisco) and I grew up referring to adults as ma'am and sir, as well as Mister and Miss with last or first name. Definitely Miss Firstname for the blue haired mafia at church and in the neighborhood. I always, and still refer to the parents of my friends and fellas as Mr. or Mrs. Lastname until they tell me otherwise. I can't begin to explain how really complicated it was when my friends had hyphenated last names and I had to remember what the individual last names of their parents were, and the amount of not married, divorced, remarried, and no last name (not making that up) people I knew.

The invitations and announcements for the weddings of some people from back home are unreal when it comes to individual names as well as the amount of parents listed when both the bride and groom, or brides and grooms, come from blended families.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

It doesn't work quite the same way as Miss First Name though. Miss First Name has always been a common way for a person of any age to refer to or address an older woman. (Miss, in this context by the way, has nothing to do with marital status. My grandmother and her sister, one married and one widowed, were widely known as Miss Mary and Miss Suzie 'til the day they died.) I have to say, though, that it is dying out.

My mother was ALWAYS Miss Dixie to the people who worked for her. When I was first called Miss Honey by them, I knew that I had arrived!

In my perspective, the African-American community is much better at this. Maybe it's because I'm north of that nasty Mason-Dixon line, but I've known several lovely women who still stick religiously to Miss First Name. It just sounds so melodious.

LOL at the blue haired mafia!

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

And you would be incorrect since these manners are very much still in effect by men and women throughout Louisiana. No parody is involved. I lived in three corners of the state, was raised in Baton Rouge, married a man that was raised in Monroe and can honestly say that this is the straight forward, honest way of speaking. You may not have this experience but to suggest that it is NOT the norm anywhere is ridiculous as if you have been everywhere.

I believe I said "New Orleans and other tradition minded Southern localities" Is not Monroe a tradition minded Southern Locality? Are not parts of Baton Rouge tradition minded? I really didn't want to be pedantic but I was referring to several areas such as much of Louisiana, the Delta country, Mobile and other parts of Alabama, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond and other obvious and not so obvious places.
I did not say anything about EVERYWHERE. I said "localities with which I have had direct experience". That, I submit, is not ridiculous. It is based on direct and personal observation.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

I believe I said "New Orleans and other tradition minded Southern localities" Is not Monroe a tradition minded Southern Locality? Are not parts of Baton Rouge tradition minded? I really didn't want to be pedantic but I was referring to several areas such as much of Louisiana, the Delta country, Mobile and other parts of Alabama, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond and other obvious and not so obvious places.
I did not say anything about EVERYWHERE. I said "localities with which I have had direct experience". That, I submit, is not ridiculous. It is based on direct and personal observation.

You said that I was wrong and that people did NOT address each other past the age of 10 in such ways. I told you that people, in fact, do speak this way. If you meant something else, you should have been more clear. These are the "rules" you are referring to are they not?

May I suggest that two gentlemen unknown to each other are always Mr. Surname. If they are well known to each other they are John and Peter without the Mr. prefix.
A neice or nephew will address the older relative as Uncle John.
A gentleman never addresses anyone as Mr. John.
Mr. John is a form of address, dieing out (in the US but not so much in the UK) for the last twenty years or so, used only by family servants to younger males or in some cases by an old family servant to a grown man who was addressed in that manner by that servant when the man was a boy.
This was a charming custom which is now hopelessly obsolete and actually inappropriate unless the person using the "Mr. John" form of address is more comfortable with it than the "Mr. Smith" form.

and

Any male past the age of ten or eleven would not address an adult male not related to him as Mr. John - ever. If related or (rarely) if a family friend of many years standing and great closeness one might use the honorific 'Uncle John' or 'Aunt Alice'. Girls might use the honorific Uncle or Aunt a bit longer but that also is rapidly dieing out except in really die hard families or groups.

I think that completely is the opposite of what I was saying. Try to read a little more critically. BTW, it's dying. Maybe that's the British spelling, but I doubt it.

[WCsweet<3]

Originally Posted by aopirose

It took me a good 3 years before I could call my MIL by her FN. She had been encouraging it since I met her, but it felt really odd.

Funny story...

We have two sets of neighbors that moved here from the Pacific Northwest. The first set has been here for about 3 years and the other since July. The two families were friends prior to their moves.

We were all over at another neighbor’s, when the 5-y.o. of the first family came in. She went straight to the food table. The mom of the second family asked if she would like something to eat. The child replied, “Yes, ma’am, Miss Mary. May I please have a hotdog?” The woman’s eyes got as large as beach balls and proceeded to drop the serving spoon and her jaw. The child’s mom smiled proudly and said, “Yes, my daughter is now a ‘Belle’.” It was the funniest thing that I had seen in a long time.

Basically your story is what I have been thinking while reading this thread. Coming from the PNW, there would have been weird looks if I had ever called anyone Miss FN or Mr. FN. I have actually been told at times that ma'am was an age thing, ie "Ma'am? I feel so old!" So it is actually rare for that to be used too!

Ahhh the differences between parts of the country.