A disconnect with legacies?

[wildcatfan]

Thought I'd print out out the info from the K-State rush pamphlet so people can compare it if they want. NPC groups consider legacies as follows:

Alpha Chi Omega: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother
Alpha Delta Pi: sister, mother, grandmother
Alpha Xi Delta: sister, mother, grandmother, aunts, step-relatives
Chi Omega: sister, mother
Delta Delta Delta: sister, mother, step-sister, step-mother
Gamma Phi Beta: sister, mother, grandmother, step-sister, step-mother Kappa Alpha Theta: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother Kappa Delta: sister, mother, grandmother, step-sister, step-mother, half- relatives
Kappa Kappa Gamma: sister, mother, grandmother
Pi Beta Phi: sister, mother, grandmother
Sigma Kappa: sister, mother, grandmother, aunt, step-relatives
Zeta Tau Alpha: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, aunts, step-relatives

[33girl]

I guess it would be hideously un-PC to make a distinction between "stepmother who's raised you since she married your dad when you were 3" and "stepmother who my dad married when I was 16 that I never see because they live in Europe."

Then again, some people's biological moms are like that latter example, too.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I guess it would be hideously un-PC to make a distinction between "stepmother who's raised you since she married your dad when you were 3" and "stepmother who my dad married when I was 16 that I never see because they live in Europe."

Then again, some people's biological moms are like that latter example, too.

Yep, I was thinking about the exact same thing. I technically have a "stepmother" who's an AXO. She's been with my father since I was 16 but I consider her "my dad's wife" and it never would have occurred to me that I might be an AXO legacy. That would have been absurd. (This is in no way a jab at AXO!) She's a wonderful woman but she is in no way, shape or form anything resembling a "mother". She's only 7 years older than me. They don't live in Europe but they might as well. I never see them.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I guess it would be hideously un-PC to make a distinction between "stepmother who's raised you since she married your dad when you were 3" and "stepmother who my dad married when I was 16 that I never see because they live in Europe."

Then again, some people's biological moms are like that latter example, too.

Yes, biological mother could be living with Step-Dad in Europe just as easily.

There's nothing "PC*" about it, it's just not possible in a policy sense.

I kind of feel like some people expect an overarching sorority policy to handle every possible nuance:

~~~ XYZ will give special consideration to every daughter, granddaughter and sister of a member, who is at least active enough in the sorority to be considered an active alumna member, and who has a thorough and loving relationship with her family member that is both supportive and educative in the policies and practices of sorority membership, recruitment and the lifelong commitment required without promising said family member membership or any expectation of guaranteed membership. Extra special consideration will be given to any of the above relatives of a member if they are named after a sorority founder or donated to the sorority foundation at birth. All donations are tax deductible. ~~~

It's just NOT POSSIBLE. Legacy policies are listed on the websites as applicable, all further discussion probably goes into MS and really don't need to be dissected twenty times til Sunday. They're general because they're inter/national and apply to every single chapter. That's just how it pretty much has to be belonging to inter/national organizations.




*PC is a bullshit phrase mostly made up and used by people who think that being polite infringes too much on their freedom to use offensive words. Being "un-PC" is not a thing, there's usually just being "an asshole." Like trying to find out if a PNM's mom is a) alive, b) really loves her or just kind of likes her or c) abandoned her and lives in Europe.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

*PC is a bullshit phrase mostly made up and used by people who think that being polite infringes too much on their freedom to use offensive words. Being "un-PC" is not a thing, there's usually just being "an asshole."

Sometimes, sometimes not.

[Xylochick216]

Alpha Chi Omega lets the PNM define the relationship, as far as steps go. Like other orgs, if the PNM considers the step-mother like a mother, she can claim the legacy.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Sometimes, sometimes not.

Most of the time, not. "Politeness" and "political correctness" have very little to do with one another. Calling someone "a person with disabilities" instead of "a cripple" doesn't mean you treat them any nicer or do things that actually help them.

Perhaps PC wasn't the most accurate phrase to use in my post, but if you can think of another, go for it.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Most of the time, not. "Politeness" and "political correctness" have very little to do with one another. Calling someone "a person with disabilities" instead of "a cripple" doesn't mean you treat them any nicer or do things that actually help them.

Perhaps PC wasn't the most accurate phrase to use in my post, but if you can think of another, go for it.

Yeah calling people crippled in no way dehumanizes them at all or is impolite. I'd leave it at "use the terms people use to describe themselves" but that really doesn't cover everything - for example, group conversations or situations where you're impolitely describing someone sitting in front of you without realizing it. You have the free speech to be offensive but it makes you an asshole.

Persons with disabilities is really little more than institutional politeness and is all encompassing. The term PC became widespread as a term of derision over the idea that we should have to force the words "Native American" or "firefighter" out of our mouths. Oh. The horror. The Daily Mail can continue to rail against PC gone mad, but it is not hard for me to use the correct words or to acknowledge that I don't get to use the same words that other people do and still be considered polite.

/the horrrrrror of PC ohhhh nooooooo

//the right term would probably have been "impossible" and/or "irrelevant"

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'd leave it at "use the terms people use to describe themselves" but that really doesn't cover everything . . . .

. . . . but it is not hard for me to use the correct words or to acknowledge that I don't get to use the same words that other people do and still be considered polite.

Ah, there's the rub though. I'm fine with call people what they call themselves, but sometimes that means there's not a "correct" word, and the problem is attempting to enforce a correctness that doesn't really exist.

For example, I don't mind saying "Indian" (or "American Indian") and I don't mind saying "Native American." I don't want to offend. But I have been castigated for not saying "Native American" even though I have been told by my "Native American" friends that they don't like to be called that, that they prefer to be called by their tribe or to be called [American] Indians. So what's a person to do, pay attention to people they know or pay attention to those who have decided which term is "correct" and will correct you if you don't follow their lead?

(And I'm not saying no one prefers to be called Native American. I'm just saying that friends have told me they don't like to be called Native American, but I'm sure others do prefer it. I'm just trying to be respectful.)

And I think PCness goes further than that. Frankly, I think "pledge" vs. "new member" and "rush" vs. "recruitment" can veer into the realm of PC.

I'm totally with you on being polite and considerate. But I'm not with you on thinking that there aren't some overzealous political correctness police out there. I've met them all too often.

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by wildcatfan

Thought I'd print out out the info from the K-State rush pamphlet so people can compare it if they want. NPC groups consider legacies as follows:

Alpha Chi Omega: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother
Alpha Delta Pi: sister, mother, grandmother
Alpha Xi Delta: sister, mother, grandmother, aunts, step-relatives
Chi Omega: sister, mother
Delta Delta Delta: sister, mother, step-sister, step-mother
Gamma Phi Beta: sister, mother, grandmother, step-sister, step-mother Kappa Alpha Theta: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother Kappa Delta: sister, mother, grandmother, step-sister, step-mother, half- relatives
Kappa Kappa Gamma: sister, mother, grandmother
Pi Beta Phi: sister, mother, grandmother
Sigma Kappa: sister, mother, grandmother, aunt, step-relatives
Zeta Tau Alpha: sister, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, aunts, step-relatives

I don't believe that is correct about Tri Delta. A DDD legacy is daughter or sister only. If you go here and open the "Recruitment Demystified" link it says daughters and sisters only on page 4 of the PDF in the glossary.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I don't believe that is correct about Tri Delta. A DDD legacy is daughter or sister only. If you go here and open the "Recruitment Demystified" link it says daughters and sisters only on page 4 of the PDF in the glossary.

You guys exclude steps?

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You guys exclude steps?

I don't know if "exclude" is the right word. DDD leadership apparently only includes daughters and sisters. So that means we also "exclude" cousins, aunts, and grandmothers.

The only reason this jumped out at me is because I remember reading that it was only mothers and sisters now and I was surprised that grandmothers were no longer on the list. Obviously a casualty of the growing number of members in recent decades and a need to narrow the potential field.

I'm pretty sure we aren't the only ones who have narrowed it to this degree and I'm sure we won't be the last.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I don't know if "exclude" is the right word. DDD leadership apparently only includes daughters and sisters. So that means we also "exclude" cousins, aunts, and grandmothers.

The only reason this jumped out at me is because I remember reading that it was only mothers and sisters now and I was surprised that grandmothers were no longer on the list. Obviously a casualty of the growing number of members in recent decades and a need to narrow the potential field.

I'm pretty sure we aren't the only ones who have narrowed it to this degree and I'm sure we won't be the last.

I understand limiting grandmothers, but I'd be surprised if a step daughter were actively excluded from anyone's legacy policy. I'm more likely to believe that they're just not specifically mentioned like 'adoptive.'

/and yes yes it does mean that you exclude cousins, aunts, and grandmothers... I'm confused how you wouldn't be excluding them? You're not including them as legacies, right? So...

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I understand limiting grandmothers, but I'd be surprised if a step daughter were actively excluded from anyone's legacy policy. I'm more likely to believe that they're just not specifically mentioned like 'adoptive.'

/and yes yes it does mean that you exclude cousins, aunts, and grandmothers... I'm confused how you wouldn't be excluding them? You're not including them as legacies, right? So...

I think using the word "exclude" sounds like something you don't want. And I don't think that is the intention in narrowing it to mothers and sisters. I'm sure all Tri Deltas are happy to have any woman who has a Tri Delta connection consider our sisterhood.

So "exclude" sounds exclusive or negative to me and I'm sure that isn't the intention.

It is more about having to decide who to include and given the overwhelming legacy problems so many schools are starting to face, I'm not surprised they chose to narrow the parameters. I bet there was a lot of discussion before the grandmother connection was dropped.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Ah, there's the rub though. I'm fine with call people what they call themselves, but sometimes that means there's not a "correct" word, and the problem is attempting to enforce a correctness that doesn't really exist.

No there's not always one correct word, but there ARE words that are considered generally offensive.

For example, I don't mind saying "Indian" (or "American Indian") and I don't mind saying "Native American." I don't want to offend. But I have been castigated for not saying "Native American" even though I have been told by my "Native American" friends that they don't like to be called that, that they prefer to be called by their tribe or to be called [American] Indians. So what's a person to do, pay attention to people they know or pay attention to those who have decided which term is "correct" and will correct you if you don't follow their lead?

Generally you'd pay attention to the people you know, although also not always assuming that those people represent everyone. And there's an element of reclamation of words that may make it OK for members of a group to use words and not ok for non-members to use them.

People can be misinformed from either side of the spectrum. But think this way if you had one friend who said "American Indian and/or tribal name" and another friend who said "Native American" you'd probably manage to code switch and use the correct words with each. Even if you didn't, your friends would probably understand. If you insisted on saying whatever you preferred because it was 'too hard' to remember or worse to just say 'INJUN' you'd be an asshole. Which, MC, you're not There's a big difference in words used for policy "persons with disabilities" and words used among social groups - where 'cripple' might be ok because it's been kind of reclaimed by an individual or group of individuals.

(And I'm not saying no one prefers to be called Native American. I'm just saying that friends have told me they don't like to be called Native American, but I'm sure others do prefer it. I'm just trying to be respectful.)

And that's the point. When it's

And I think PCness goes further than that. Frankly, I think "pledge" vs. "new member" and "rush" vs. "recruitment" can veer into the realm of PC.

Could, except that it's not really "PC" in any way other than the fact that our orgs have changed the language. They've intentionally changed the language for a reason. It's called marketing. It's not so we don't offend the widdle PNMs feewings.

I'm totally with you on being polite and considerate. But I'm not with you on thinking that there aren't some overzealous political correctness police out there. I've met them all too often.

I didn't say that they weren't assholes too, they're not typically being 'polite' themselves. That doesn't make any of it about being "PC" or not.

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I think using the word "exclude" sounds like something you don't want.

Not necessarily, it means the opposite of including. It doesn't mean you won't offer them bids, but it does mean you're not extending them special consideration of legacy. In some sense it also does mean you don't "want" to include them in your legacy definition on a national level. I'm not sure what other word you would use that wouldn't require talking around the subject. Omit? Leave out? Not include? Exclude isn't inherently negative, our orgs are exclusive in many ways and inclusive in others.

And I don't think that is the intention in narrowing it to mothers and sisters. I'm sure all Tri Deltas are happy to have any woman who has a Tri Delta connection consider our sisterhood.

Right, but not necessarily as a legacy. This is the same with every NPC org AFAICT

So "exclude" sounds exclusive or negative to me and I'm sure that isn't the intention.

It is exclusive, that has to be the intent or it would include everyone.

It is more about having to decide who to include and given the overwhelming legacy problems so many schools are starting to face, I'm not surprised they chose to narrow the parameters. I bet there was a lot of discussion before the grandmother connection was dropped.

I'm still curious to know whether steps are excluded or included by the policy. And I'm still leaning towards 'included by lack of exclusion.'