He, she or it? Family keeps baby's gender a secret

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So, you know that all parents use their children to make statements and you think it's always wrong for parents to do that. Cool.



No, that's not "life" and don't use prayer and God to encourage people to be silent participants.

I can and I will use God to hope that children are born to strong parents, because many children are not. If it were so, wouldn't have to worry about misguided children.

Only people who were raised in basements with no human contact other than their parents live their lives solely based on what their parents molded them to become. That also applies to the kids in this article. The parents know that they will be exposed to all of the complexities that life has to offer. The goal is to work towards challenging people's assumptions about "life." I have people in my life who have dedicated their personal and professional lives to challenging gender norms. It's a daily journey for them and they have been met with daily opposition--yet, they choose to keep going. I hope the kids in this article are able to choose whether to stop or keep going versus being forced to keep going.

Didn't say solely. Doesn't mean outside forces don't help in the molding, but if parents are not involved at all in positive molding and knowledge of self, that is a sad thing.

Nice that the parents have made this choice, I don't agree with their method because it takes the child's ability to choose which stand he or she wishes to take in regards to how he or she wishes to present themselves in this world. Now if the child was older and started showing signs of gender ambiguity and they chose to make support and see where it goes, more power. At the beginning when the only thing the baby knows right now is eat and sleep? Naw don't agree.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I can and I will use God to hope that children are born to strong parents, because many children are not. If it were so, wouldn't have to worry about misguided children.

Uhhhhh...this isn't really an issue of "strong parenting." The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means putting boys in blue and girls in pink; and discouraging any hint of defying gender. The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means teaching heterosexuality and discouraging homosexuality.

Most of these "strong parents" also conveniently use God to support why this is how things are supposed to be. This evening, a "strong parent" who I love with all of my heart talked to me about transgenderism and used the Bible's "...and God created Adam and Eve" to seal the deal.

God + strong parenting = ?????????

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Didn't say solely. Doesn't mean outside forces don't help in the molding, but if parents are not involved at all in positive molding and knowledge of self, that is a sad thing.

Yeah and the family in this article consider themselves doing just that and probably consider themselves "strong parents." They may also consider themselves to be "Godly."

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Nice that the parents have made this choice, I don't agree with their method because it takes the child's ability to choose which stand he or she wishes to take in regards to how he or she wishes to present themselves in this world. Now if the child was older and started showing signs of gender ambiguity and they chose to make support and see where it goes, more power. At the beginning when the only thing the baby knows right now is eat and sleep? Naw don't agree.

You see this the exact opposite of how I see it. The way the average parent does it removes choice from the child. Children do not choose to be given pink baby stuff upon delivery and go home to a "girly nursery." People who have been gender socialized choose this for children. We don't know what children would choose if it is completely up to them from start to finish.

And since children have no real ability to choose anything, I see nothing wrong (as long as it is done sanely) with these parents choosing to go this route for their children just as other parents choose to go the gendered route for their children.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Uhhhhh...this isn't really an issue of "strong parenting." The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means putting boys in blue and girls in pink; and discouraging any hint of defying gender. The average parent thinks "strong parenting" means teaching heterosexuality and discouraging homosexuality.

Most of these "strong parents" also conveniently use God to support why this is how things are supposed to be. This evening, a "strong parent" who I love with all of my heart talked to me about transgenderism and used the Bible's "...and God created Adam and Eve" to seal the deal.

God + strong parenting = ?????????

Of course it wasn't, you made the choice to include as part of the issue. I only made that comment as an aside to overall parenthood. Not a referendum on these particular parents.

Yeah and the family in this article consider themselves doing just that and probably consider themselves "strong parents." They may also consider themselves to be "Godly."

See above.

I think I need to use God's name more often. It's like a four letter word sometimes in these forums.

You see this the exact opposite of how I see it. The way the average parent does it removes choice from the child. Children do not choose to be given pink baby stuff upon delivery and go home to a "girly nursery." People who have been gender socialized choose this for children. We don't know what children would choose if it is completely up to them from start to finish.

And since children have no real ability to choose anything, I see nothing wrong (as long as it is done sanely) with these parents choosing to go this route for their children just as other parents choose to go the gendered route for their children.

It's one thing to dress your child a certain way, that is fine. The parents should be able to request that just because my child was born a boy does not mean you have to buy blue or pink.

And this is where we differ, because the child has no choice, saying you are not gonna even tell your child's grandparents just to make a point is rather silly. But hey we all can see two sides of an argument. Doesn't mean neither one of us are wrong.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Or.. um.. marvel comic character. Way cooler. I'd name a kid Storm

Random: I considered going by Storm in college. Or Rogue. I really wanted a cool nickname.

Anywho, I agree with Pika. That's what I was thinking when I posted this in N&P. To be 5 years old (or 2 years old) and left with the decision of choosing/rejecting a gender just sounds overwhelming. Leaving it to him to tell people what he is....if he is asking them to let the leaders of the nature center know he is a boy, that is great but I feel like he shouldn't have to ask. They left him to tell staff himself and you know what, he's 5. He shouldn't have to be his own advocate at that age. There is nothing wrong with Jazz being a boy who likes pink and wears his hair long, but for him to be a ________ who likes pink and has long hair is a problem. To just not be taught to ascribe to anything leaves a child open to so many identity issues, possibly moreso than those have "assigned genders" and reject them later. What they are trying to achieve is admirable in theory but the opposite of misguided is not being left unguided.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Of course it wasn't, you made the choice to include as part of the issue. I only made that comment as an aside to overall parenthood. Not a referendum on these particular parents.

Referendum or not, I was only replying to your post. In the context in which we were typing, you ended with "that's life...just pray God gives kids strong parents who will try to teach them how to handle this gender stuff." That implies that people shouldn't wrestle with this too much because God and strong parenting will figure it all out. While I firmly believe in God and strong parenting as a foundation, I do not believe in concluding such discussions with God and strong parenting as though it solves and silences the issue. That happens all the time when people discuss such topics, hence my response.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Referendum or not, I was only replying to your post. In the context in which we were typing, you ended with "that's life...just pray God gives kids strong parents who will try to teach them how to handle this gender stuff." That implies that people shouldn't wrestle with this too much because God and strong parenting will figure it all out. While I firmly believe in God and strong parenting as a foundation, I do not believe in concluding such discussions with God and strong parenting as though it solves and silences the issue. That happens all the time when people discuss such topics, hence my response.

But that's the whole point.

My response when I invoked God was in response to this portion.

ETA: Regardless of the statement that the parents are making, I really hope these children aren't emotionally and mentally harmed by any of this. Children are mentally and emotionally negatively (and positively) impacted by gender everyday.

Which is why I say I think you took my words a little further than they were suppose to.

But that's the beauty of the internet, unless we are face to face, normal conversations that would have been picked up on do not always translate over the interwebs, unless you carefully type out every aspect of what you are referring to. As for your belief in not concluding with God, I would agree if we were having a debate on what defines a strong parent. That was just conversation.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but what about the other 2 children? What makes this one different from the other 2?

If the parents are trying to make a statement, why wasn't this done from the get-go?

It's making me assume that Storm is a girl. That's what is different...lol. They are boys. Wouldn't that be a hoot if that were true? Makes it seem like they are ashamed of a girl.

There are ways to give children choices WITHIN parameters that a parent sets. I did not let my daughter wear whatever she wanted when she was 2/3 because she didn't always understand that the weather or the occasion dictates what is appropriate to wear. I did have her help me shop for her own clothes and I did offer her the choice of two outfits that met the right weather/formality. She wasn't wearing sweat pants to a wedding and she wasn't wearing shorts and a tank top in the middle of winter.

If kids were capable of making all of their own decisions, they would be adults.

[Munchkin03]

The first time I read this, in a Yahoo! article, I thought that it was pretty cool. They weren't raising their children based on others' expectations of what boys and girls should do--granted, they're doing it in an extreme manner.

Then I read the Toronto Star article, that discussed more about them, and they just struck me as super tripped out on themselves. They kind of reminded me of LN, the character played by Maggie Gyllenhaal in "Away We Go." They also reminded me of people I went to college with who were super annoying.

If anything, the "no-schooling" bothers me more than the genderless upbringing. Kids need the social structure of school...even progressive programs like Waldorf and Montessori still have some structure!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

But that's the whole point.

My response when I invoked God was in response to this portion.

LOL. I know what it was in response to. My response to your response remains. I also know that God and strong parenting can buffer some of the effects of that other stuff.