Obama's Birth Certificate Released

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Hmmm. I know there's always been a dispute about whether Jackson was born in North or South Carolina. According to The Source (aka the Wiki), Chester Arthur seems to have been the only president about whom a question was ever raised, with some claiming that he was born in Canada.

Believe it or not, I remember this little dilemma from a high school textbook, prior to when Al Gore invented the internet. I googled it, too, so maybe the Atlantic Ocean v. the Carolinas became less of a story.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

. . . prior to when Al Gore invented the internet.

Speaking of people about whom some have raised questions of natural-born citizenship.

If hope you figure out who it was; I want to know.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Believe it or not, I remember this little dilemma from a high school textbook, prior to when Al Gore invented the internet. I googled it, too, so maybe the Atlantic Ocean v. the Carolinas became less of a story.

Jackson was born in 1767 so it's a non issue. (But yes, he's the one it's rumored about). Even if he were born earlier and on a ship as some claim, he's still eligible.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;"

Some relevant wiki text:

Jackson's father died in an accident in February 1767, at the age of 29, three weeks before Jackson was born. Jackson was born in the Waxhaws area, but his exact birth site is unclear because he was born around the time his mother was making a difficult trip home from burying Jackson's father. The area was so remote that the border between North and South Carolina had not officially been surveyed yet.[9]

In 1824, Jackson wrote a letter saying that he was born at an uncle's plantation in Lancaster County, South Carolina. But he may have claimed to be a South Carolinian because the state was considering nullification of the Tariff of 1824, which Jackson opposed. In the mid-1850s, second-hand evidence indicated that he may have been born at a different uncle's home in North Carolina.[9]

And an article: WaPo

[SOM]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'd be surprised if any other presidents ever produced a birth certificate. It only became an issue in this case (well, if you put aside obsessive conspiracy theories) because of the fact that his father wasn't American, his mother had lived overseas before and after his birth, and the fact that some people apparently had trouble remembering exactly when Hawaii became a state.

What's interesting to me is that I remember more "conversation" before the election about whether McCain is a natural-born citizen than whether Obama is.

MysticCat:
The "conversation" or "question" was raised, for a very short period of time. And never answered. In fact, the only way that it could have been was if Sen John McCain was election and sworn in. At that point any party with standing would have filed suit and it would have ended up at the USSC. Note:The GOP never filed a suit after Obama sworn in.
On John McCain: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/may/12/born-usa/
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/how_can_panamanian-born_mccain_be_elected_president.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp
http://www.michiganlawreview.org/first-impressions/volume/107
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html
http://genealogy.about.com/b/2008/08/30/john-mccains-citizenship-status.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/trumps-birther-libel-and-american-history/237217/

This could be the real issue down the road for anyone else running for office who is a military brat. And an issue only the USSC can rule on. And rule on only after the election and swearing in.

[Drolefille]

It's pretty much as settled as it will be without a court case. Congress stated he was a natural born citizen, he meets the criteria in multiple ways, he could even have had natural born citizenship retroactively granted by the laws granting children in Panema specifically citizenship.

But I don't think it's obvious that anyone born now outside of the borders would be immediate ineligible even with only one American parent under current laws.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SOM

MysticCat:
The "conversation" or "question" was raised, for a very short period of time. And never answered. In fact, the only way that it could have been was if Sen John McCain was election and sworn in. At that point any party with standing would have filed suit and it would have ended up at the USSC. Note:The GOP never filed a suit after Obama sworn in.
On John McCain: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/may/12/born-usa/
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/how_can_panamanian-born_mccain_be_elected_president.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp
http://www.michiganlawreview.org/first-impressions/volume/107
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html
http://genealogy.about.com/b/2008/08/30/john-mccains-citizenship-status.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/trumps-birther-libel-and-american-history/237217/

This could be the real issue down the road for anyone else running for office who is a military brat. And an issue only the USSC can rule on. And rule on only after the election and swearing in.

Oh, I know it was raised about both candidates. I was just saying that I remember seeing more articles about whether McCain was a natural-born citizen than about whether Obama was. (This, of course, doesn't mean that there were in fact more articles about McCain -- just that I saw more articles about McCain.)

FYI, I don't know that the GOP would have had standing to sue. Many courts have said individuals do not have standing to sue, and many legal scholars question whether the issue is justiciable in the courts at all. I believe there is a statutory procedure by which a challenge can be made (before the inauguration) in Congress as part of the receipt of results from the electoral college. As for the answer, I would have been amazed and astounded if SCOTUS or anyone else with say-so had said McCain wasn't a natural-born citizen.

[SOM]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's pretty much as settled as it will be without a court case. Congress stated he was a natural born citizen, he meets the criteria in multiple ways, he could even have had natural born citizenship retroactively granted by the laws granting children in Panema specifically citizenship.

But I don't think it's obvious that anyone born now outside of the borders would be immediate ineligible even with only one American parent under current laws.

Drolefille: I agree with you up to a point. Sen. McMain's matter is settled-he is a citizen and he did not win the election. If he had, we might have President Palin right now.
Congress passed a non-binding agreement, not a bill.
Anything else involving his background will have to wait until someone else with simular situation runs for President.

Humm--One just about has to start to wonder if Palin knew about this at the time and....VBEG

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by SOM

Drolefille: I agree with you up to a point. Sen. McMain's matter is settled-he is a citizen and he did not win the election. If he had, we might have President Palin right now.
Congress passed a non-binding agreement, not a bill.
Anything else involving his background will have to wait until someone else with simular situation runs for President.

Humm--One just about has to start to wonder if Palin knew about this at the time and....VBEG

Did McCain die or something?

[SOM]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Did McCain die or something?

No BluPhire-At at all.
You may wish to review the links I posted above.
Over the past few years I have taken the time to not only read up on those but to also talk to those far smarter, far more involved in those matters than I.
From what I have put together, it is my very humble opinion that Sen. John McCain is not a natural born citizen.
However, as I have pointed out, that is not my call nor decision.
And, as he lost the election, we we never know the hows and whys of a decision by the USSC.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by SOM

From what I have put together, it is my very humble opinion that Sen. John McCain is not a natural born citizen.

WTF there's McCain birthers too?!?

According to the United States naturalization and immigration laws McCain is a natural born citizen. I'm no SCOTUS but natural born citizen = birthright citizenship, so if you're BORN a U.S. citizen (shouldn't matter where) you should be eligible to become president. Unless you're making a case that people not born in the 50 states aren't considered natural born, which would make the residents of PR, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands and N Mariana Islands illegitimate citizens.

[SWTXBelle]

I figured early on that if there were any legs on the Obama birth issue Hillary Clinton would have been on it like white on rice during the primaries.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SOM

And, as he lost the election, we we never know the hows and whys of a decision by the USSC.

If it ever made it to SCOTUS, which I think is at least as big a question as whether he is a natural-born citizen.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I figured early on that if there were any legs on the Obama birth issue Hillary Clinton would have been on it like white on rice during the primaries.

LOL.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

WTF there's McCain birthers too?!?

According to the United States naturalization and immigration laws McCain is a natural born citizen. I'm no SCOTUS but natural born citizen = birthright citizenship, so if you're BORN a U.S. citizen (shouldn't matter where) you should be eligible to become president. Unless you're making a case that people not born in the 50 states aren't considered natural born, which would make the residents of PR, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands and N Mariana Islands illegitimate citizens.

Which would also make Obama a birthright citizen since his mother was an American.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

WTF there's McCain birthers too?!?

According to the United States naturalization and immigration laws McCain is a natural born citizen. I'm no SCOTUS but natural born citizen = birthright citizenship, so if you're BORN a U.S. citizen (shouldn't matter where) you should be eligible to become president. Unless you're making a case that people not born in the 50 states aren't considered natural born, which would make the residents of PR, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands and N Mariana Islands illegitimate citizens.

Given the legal precedent, it actually is more complicated than that. McCain was born the Panama Canal Zone (although some say he was born at a hospital outside the Canal Zone). There is honest difference of legal opinion about whether one is a "natural-born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution under those circumstances, even when born of American parents.

I know we had a discussion about this back in 2008, but I can't find it now.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Which would also make Obama a birthright citizen since his mother was an American.

Not necessarily. There are residency conditions the mother must meet in order to pass citizenship on to her child. I'm not saying this doesn't apply to Obama (I don't know much about his mother) I'm just pointing out that there are situations where U.S. citizen mothers CANNOT pass down citizenship.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Given the legal precedent, it actually is more complicated than that. McCain was born the Panama Canal Zone (although some say he was born at a hospital outside the Canal Zone). There is honest difference of legal opinion about whether one is a "natural-born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution under those circumstances, even when born of American parents.

It's only complicated because people want to make it that way.

The PCZ was a U.S. Territory at the time of McCain's birth, I could see the controversy if he was born on foreign soil but since he wasn't...

Pursuant to 8 USCS § 1401, the following persons can acquire citizenship by jus soli:

-A person born in the U.S., and subject to its jurisdiction.
-A person born in the U.S. as a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.
-A person of unknown parentage found in the U.S. while under the age of five year. The person can remain a U.S. citizen if it is not shown before s/he attains twenty five years that the person was not born in the U.S.
-A person born in an outlying possession of the U.S. (i.e., including Puerto Rico, the Panama Canal Zone, Panama, the Virgin Islands and Guam.) of parents, one of whom is a citizen of the U.S. who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person.

Not trying to be difficult here, I just don't understand why he wouldn't be eligible for the office of the presidency.