Shutter Fraternities for Young Women's Good

[sigmadiva]

That is what I said - even though the woman, or heck guy for that matter, may be isht-faced drunk, no one should take advantage of that situation in any way.

But, that does not mean that person should not exercise any responsibility.

If you know that you get totally drunk after a few beers and some shots and pass out, then that is on you. No one forced you to get that drunk and pass out. Still, no one should attack you, but you have left yourself vulnerable by your own means.

I'm advocating personal responsibility.

Go out, party and have a good time, but know your limits.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

That is what I said - even though the woman, or heck guy for that matter, may be isht-faced drunk, no one should take advantage of that situation in any way.

But, that does not mean that person should not exercise any responsibility.

If you know that you get totally drunk after a few beers and some shots and pass out, then that is on you. No one forced you to get that drunk and pass out. Still, no one should attack you, but you have left yourself vulnerable by your own means.

I'm advocating personal responsibility.

Go out, party and have a good time, but know your limits.

The problem here is that all too frequently society puts the onus on women, the responsibility on women, to not be raped. Yeah people should be safe and be responsible, but if the reaction to a rape is "well she shouldn't have been drinking so much", or the inexplicable "she shouldn't have been going upstairs with Mr. Penis" of the post I was replying to, there is a serious problem and it is not with the rape victim. It's good to encourage responsibility, but never to put responsibility for a crime onto a victim. And as a society we should be "encouraging" more responsibility on the part of the rapists instead of only looking at the victims.

So yeah, when people come into a thread about rape and only want to say "Buuuuuut I just mean personal responsibility is important" when that is pretty much ALL society bothers to say, it suggests a real blindness to reality.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The problem here is that all too frequently society puts the onus on women, the responsibility on women, to not be raped. Yeah people should be safe and be responsible, but if the reaction to a rape is "well she shouldn't have been drinking so much", or the inexplicable "she shouldn't have been going upstairs with Mr. Penis" of the post I was replying to, there is a serious problem and it is not with the rape victim. It's good to encourage responsibility, but never to put responsibility for a crime onto a victim. And as a society we should be "encouraging" more responsibility on the part of the rapists instead of only looking at the victims.

So yeah, when people come into a thread about rape and only want to say "Buuuuuut I just mean personal responsibility is important" when that is pretty much ALL society bothers to say, it suggests a real blindness to reality.

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

I never suggested that the guy can and should get away with it.

What I'm saying is that as women we may have to exercise a little more judgment than men. That is to say use some common sense too.

If a girl at a party gets drunk and goes upstairs with a guy, what does she anticipate will happen? That he is going to do her taxes?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

As long as you put drole at that level, you'll save yourself some time.

[DrPhil]

@ Drolefille

No, not only (psychologists and) evolutionary psychologists take that approach. While I consider rape to be about control and domination, I also have extensive knowledge of the limited rape as sexual fulfillment literature and research. The rape as power and domination research (not just theory pieces) is also relatively limited.

I don't necessarily agree with the rape as sex perspective and am quick to tell people "rape is about power." However, my response is after having read the "rape as sexual fulfillment" literature and agreeing with some components of it.

Rapists are like any other motivated offender in that there are different theories and research findings about why motivated offenders do what they do. There is much less research about why rapists do what they do than there is about why other offenders do what they do. Agree or disagree, whether rape is motivated by power, sex, or a combination of both is not a closed debate. All of these issues warrant continued discussion and research for further knowledge and understanding. So, yes, "some researchers say a lot of things" and I welcome all of this research and discussion regardless of whether I personally agree with all of it.

*****
For people who want to read some of the literature on both rape as motivated by power and rape as motivated by sex:

(1) Some consider these two books to be the main originators of the rape as power perspective:

(a) A. Nicholas Groth and H. Jean Birnbaum. 1979. Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender.

(b) Susan Brownmiller. 1975. Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape.


(2) Christopher Jarvis. 2004. Rape Myth Acceptance and Rape Proclivity. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 19: 4, p. 427.

(3) Patricia Smith. Rape and Equal Protection. 1956-Hypatia. 19:2. Spring 2004, pp. 152-157 (Review).

(4) KK Baker. 1999. Sex, Rape, and Shame. Boston University Law Review. 79:3. p. 663.

(5) James Tedeschi and Richard B. Felson. 1994. Violence, Aggression, and Coercive Actions. American Psychological Association.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

I never suggested that the guy can and should get away with it.

What I'm saying is that as women we may have to exercise a little more judgment than men. That is to say use some common sense too.

If a girl at a party gets drunk and goes upstairs with a guy, what does she anticipate will happen? That he is going to do her taxes?

Again you're putting the onus on women. This is the equivalent of the "women should wear burqas so as not to incite men to sin/arousal/rape" argument. I mean, you know the guys are going to get aroused if they can see your shoulder, so why not just accept that and cover up?

Originally Posted by DrPhil

@ Drolefille

No, not only (psychologists and) evolutionary psychologists take that approach. While I consider rape to be about control and domination, I also have extensive knowledge of the limited rape as sexual fulfillment literature and research. The rape as power and domination research (not just theory pieces) is also relatively limited.

I don't necessarily agree with the rape as sex perspective and am quick to tell people "rape is about power." However, my response is after having read the "rape as sexual fulfillment" literature and agreeing with some components of it.

Rapists are like any other motivated offender in that there are different theories and research findings about why motivated offenders do what they do. There is much less research about why rapists do what they do than there is about why other offenders do what they do. Agree or disagree, whether rape is motivated by power, sex, or a combination of both is not a closed debate. All of these issues warrant continued discussion and research for further knowledge and understanding. So, yes, "some researchers say a lot of things" and I welcome all of this research and discussion regardless of whether I personally agree with all of it.

*****
For people who want to read some of the literature on both rape as motivated by power and rape as motivated by sex:

(1) Some consider these two books to be the main originators of the rape as power perspective:

(a) A. Nicholas Groth and H. Jean Birnbaum. 1979. Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender.

(b) Susan Brownmiller. 1975. Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape.


(2) Christopher Jarvis. 2004. Rape Myth Acceptance and Rape Proclivity. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 19: 4, p. 427.

(3) Patricia Smith. Rape and Equal Protection. 1956-Hypatia. 19:2. Spring 2004, pp. 152-157 (Review).

(4) KK Baker. 1999. Sex, Rape, and Shame. Boston University Law Review. 79:3. p. 663.

(5) James Tedeschi and Richard B. Felson. 1994. Violence, Aggression, and Coercive Actions. American Psychological Association.

Thanks for the cites, I'll put them on the list of things to look into in my non-existent spare time. (No sarcasm.)

That said, even though sometimes what I read on the subject "makes sense" that alone isn't enough to convince me that it's scientifically valid. It's a too frequent error in research - like the whole bigger brains = smarter ergo women = dumber belief. Scientists knew it was right, proved it was right, until further research occurred.

Running around in circles on it aside, the example I was responding to fully equated rape with sex and that's what I was responding to.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

As long as you put drole at that level, you'll save yourself some time.

Will do.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

I never suggested that the guy can and should get away with it.

What I'm saying is that as women we may have to exercise a little more judgment than men. That is to say use some common sense too.

If a girl at a party gets drunk and goes upstairs with a guy, what does she anticipate will happen? That he is going to do her taxes?

In other words, you are talking about victim precipitation (which is NOT synonymous with victim blame) and victimology. Victimology is extensively studied as is offender motivation.

In that case, I agree with you. As long as people know that the average rape is not a result of a victim who chose to get intoxicated or drugged and decided to hang out with potential offenders. And as long as people aren't stuck in "but why did you do that...you should've known better." After we note the instances in which the victim could have made smarter choices, there is a need to move on to determine (whether and) how the alleged perpetrator should be held accountable.

(You aren't saying "boys will be boys" or anything of that sort.)

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Good question. I was the pledge trainer and evidently someone thought it would be funny. It was not and there was hell to pay. I never did find out exactly who did it but I blamed them all and they all suffered for it.

EMS even asked my girlfriend if I was capable of making it back. It was that bad. She somehow convinced them that I was. I was totally out of the loop when she was walking/dragging me back to the apartment with the help of some brothers. I remember nothing until I set up on the couch and wondered where the hell I was. These type drugs are not funny and are only used/abused by losers. The experience was terrifying and I feel for anyone who has ever been the victim of this type drug and experience. You are totally under the control of the drug and at the mercy of whomever or whatever.

This really bothers me. I just can't even imagine. This is another example of why both women and men need to be careful and smart. Not everything is preventable but some things are.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

In other words, you are talking about victim precipitation (which is NOT synonymous with victim blame) and victimology. Victimology is extensively studied as is offender motivation.

I guess... I don't know all the sociology jargon.

(You aren't saying "boys will be boys" or anything of that sort.)

No, but I think we need to be honest and admit that they will. Once we acknowledge this, then we as women can be better prepared to defend ourselves.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I guess... I don't know all the sociology jargon.

Nevermind, I was actually giving your perspective more credit than was due. You are saying "boys will be boys." That isn't what victim precipitation and victimology are about.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, but I think we need to be honest and admit that they will. Once we acknowledge this, then we as women can be better prepared to defend ourselves.

They won't if people don't act as though it is inevitable. It is all about socialization and what the aggregate allows. Therefore, I as a woman refuse to acknowledge that and am well prepared to defend myself without acknowledging that. I urge other women to be safe and well prepared without acknowledging that nonsense.

"Women protect your rep and guard your vaginas from those crazily unpredictable men who may be rapists!"

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Nevermind, I was actually giving your perspective more credit than was due. You are saying "boys will be boys." That isn't what victim precipitation and victimology are about.



They won't if people don't act as though it is inevitable. It is all about socialization and what the aggregate allows. Therefore, I as a woman refuse to acknowledge that and am well prepared to defend myself without acknowledging that. I urge other women to be safe and well prepared without acknowledging that nonsense.

"Women protect your rep and guard your vaginas from those crazily unpredictable men who may be rapists!"

OH NOES MEN ARE OUT TO RAPE US!