Shutter Fraternities for Young Women's Good

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by agzg

Shutting down fraternities would not be an effective way to address rape culture on campus or anywhere else.

This. But also, universities need to do a better job of shutting shit down when it happens. The only thing that made the Yale fraternity different than the other students was the fact they were chanting it in public. Yeah, that makes campus incredibly hostile to women, and I'm thrilled the women at Yale stood up and didn't back down about it from what I've seen.

But like you said in a later post, this whole "handling sexual assault cases internally" bullshit has got to end.

Personally, as important as women's safety lectures are, I'd like to see more: Here is what rape is, it is not ok, ever. Here is what consent is, you must have this or it is rape.

Blah blah stop trying to protect our daughters and instead raise our sons not to be rapists.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This. But also, universities need to do a better job of shutting shit down when it happens. The only thing that made the Yale fraternity different than the other students was the fact they were chanting it in public. Yeah, that makes campus incredibly hostile to women, and I'm thrilled the women at Yale stood up and didn't back down about it from what I've seen.

But like you said in a later post, this whole "handling sexual assault cases internally" bullshit has got to end.

Personally, as important as women's safety lectures are, I'd like to see more: Here is what rape is, it is not ok, ever. Here is what consent is, you must have this or it is rape.

Blah blah stop trying to protect our daughters and instead raise our sons not to be rapists.

Amen to the bolded.

I haven't read any piece by this author before, but she sounds batshit crazy in this one.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But like you said in a later post, this whole "handling sexual assault cases internally" bullshit has got to end.

Personally, as important as women's safety lectures are, I'd like to see more: Here is what rape is, it is not ok, ever. Here is what consent is, you must have this or it is rape.

About 15 years ago, there was a major controversy at my undergrad because of a sexual assault. He said it was consensual, she couldn't remember. The U tried to handle it internally and failed. He sued the school and they all ended up settling for millions of dollars. (I'm simplifying it a lot here but it just goes to how the "internal handling" can backfire for the accused as well as the accuser.)

One result of that whole mess is that we have excellent sexual assault awareness seminars during orientation, and it's pretty much how you described it. I know that the Greeks all had to have additional training (this could have been nationally mandated), as did any organization that wanted to host a party on-campus.

[33girl]

I'd rather see a greater focus on SAFETY, period, rather than on rape. Doing the latter just puts up barriers between men and women and puts women into the eternal victim role. It's not wise to go alone someplace with ANYONE you barely know. I mean, you never know when a chick is going to go Single White Female on you. Funny reference, but I sincerely mean it. Ditto for men - going somewhere with an unknown man OR woman. Someone doesn't have to have half a foot & 200 lbs on you to do things to you (after drugging you) that will mess you up.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I'd rather see a greater focus on SAFETY, period, rather than on rape. Doing the latter just puts up barriers between men and women and puts women into the eternal victim role. It's not wise to go alone someplace with ANYONE you barely know. I mean, you never know when a chick is going to go Single White Female on you. Funny reference, but I sincerely mean it. Ditto for men - going somewhere with an unknown man OR woman. Someone doesn't have to have half a foot & 200 lbs on you to do things to you (after drugging you) that will mess you up.

Most rape isn't stranger rape. Placing the focus on safety puts the responsibility on the victim. "Well why was she with him, she should have known better."

And finally, DISCUSSING RAPE DOES NOT DRIVE A WEDGE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, RAPE DRIVES A WEDGE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.

Wanted to make that perfectly clear.



/yes, victims come from all genders, but women are the primary victims and the most affected by rape. They are also affected by the rape culture that started this thread in a way that most men are not.

ETA some wiki stats:

In reality, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home

Do we address 1/4 of rapes by focusing on strangers, or 100% of rapes by focusing on consent, and punishing offenders rather than letting them off with a boys will be boys.

Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 30.9% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 26.6% in the victims' homes and 10.1% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7.2% occur at parties, 7.2% in vehicles, 3.6% outdoors and 2.2% in bars.

If 37-40% of the time you're at home, does that really count as 'going somewhere' with someone you don't know?

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

As I said, the wedge was already driven. Not talking about it is just playing pretend.

College Campuses and Rape

43% of college men admit using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman’s protest; using physical aggression; and forcing intercourse; 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraint to force a woman to have sex.
34% of completed rapes and 45% of attempted rapes take place on campus. Almost 60% of the completed campus rapes that take place on campus occur in the victim's residence, 31% occur in another residence, and 10% occur in a fraternity.
3/4 of off-campus rapes and 7/8 of on-campus rapes involved perpetrators who were known to the victims.
78% of the men identified (as rapists) were an acquaintance, friend or boyfriend of the victims.

We need to be teaching men about consent, teaching them not to be rapists, and punishing them when it happens.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

We need to be teaching men about consent, teaching them not to be rapists, and punishing them when it happens.

So in other words, every man's default setting is rapist, and we need to "teach" them to override it?

Thank you so much for proving my point.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

So in other words, every man's default setting is rapist, and we need to "teach" them to override it?

Thank you so much for proving my point.

Women's default setting isn't victim, yet women are always taught how to be safe.

It works both ways. Teach both women and men to be safe; and teach both women and men how not to victimize others.

Don't some NPC chapters talk to members about campus safety including sexual assault, rape, and other violence? Why shouldn't fraternity chapters do the same thing? That should actually be a campus-wide lesson (as it is for female and male students at some campuses) rather than only letting organizations teach that.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Don't some NPC chapters talk to members about campus safety including sexual assault, rape, and other violence? Why shouldn't fraternity chapters do the same thing? That should actually be a campus-wide lesson (as it is for female and male students at some campuses) rather than only letting organizations teach that.

In some cases, it is a campus-wide lesson. I believe I posted this upthread, but my undergrad (as a result of a lawsuit where ACCUSED sued the University) has a very comprehensive sexual assault awareness and prevention program.

For risk management and insurance reasons, Greeks tend to get more education about it than the general campus population. This may not be the case everywhere, however.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It works both ways. Teach both women and men to be safe; and teach both women and men how not to victimize others.

Don't some NPC chapters talk to members about campus safety including sexual assault, rape, and other violence? Why shouldn't fraternity chapters do the same thing? That should actually be a campus-wide lesson (as it is for female and male students at some campuses) rather than only letting organizations teach that.

I concur with your first paragraph.

And yes, Greeks probably do hear more about it than the average student, just as they probably hear more about eating disorders and binge drinking than the average student. It all depends where it's coming from. If your national GLO has a program on EDs and how to prevent them, then that is part of what you're paying dues for - programming to improve your life and educate you as a woman. If Butthead U holds an open to the campus program on EDs and sorority women are required by the school to attend or else their chapter gets penalized, that's beyond offensive.

When fraternities and sororities were initially founded, a lot of their mission was to provide programming to educate on issues like these (not these same issues, but you get my drift). As the schools took over more and more of that duty, the Greeks let it go. IMO it's time for Greeks to start providing more of these services for their members again, as the programming schools provide is often very prejudicial where Greeks are concerned.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlum

Her article was almost sad. It sounds as though she has a phobia that will absolutely limit her for the rest of her life.

I have news for her. Men live in the real world. If she wants to live there as well, she better get over her issues.

Men run the real world. Which was kind of her poorly expressed overwrought point.

HEY, Caitlin. You and others who have this apparent struggle about fearing men need to "man up" (pun intended) and learn that college boys and yes, grown men, live through their penises.

What. The. Fuck?

Don't ever go upstairs at a frat house unless its with your established boyfriend who you use for sex

Wait now, so if she had a boyfriend she's only using him for sex? Didn't she SAY that she was warned not to go upstairs under fear of rape? You think this was a newsflash?

don't make a fool of yourself by being the queen of kegstands,

Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

don't be STUPID,

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.

and Mr. Penis will have to sit in his room and go fap fap fap all by himself.

You know rape is about power, not sex, right? Even date rape, acquaintance rape, drunk at a party rape. It's about having the POWER to force someone to do something that they do not or would not consent to.

Yes, hell yes, I am a lot older than many of you. But here's the flash, girlies. Mr. Penis is an ancient god, one who lives through the ages.

WTF is this even.

They don't care what she is. They're trying to get laid. Is this a revelation in 2011?

While they obviously don't care about her as a person, it is NOT ABOUT SEX.

Okay. That's my weekly rant. Carry on.

Do all your weekly rants make this little sense?

Originally Posted by 33girl

So in other words, every man's default setting is rapist, and we need to "teach" them to override it?

Thank you so much for proving my point.

If that's what you read you're an idiot. It's about teaching our children, from young through college how to act and what is unacceptable behavior rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

Your point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone. Oh how terrible, the divide between men and women when men are forced to acknowledge the existence of rape. 99% of which is perpetrated by their gender. Obviously their feelings are the most important here and it's just better not to actually address the real problem.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

...rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

I doubt that is what 33girl is advocating. That seems to be exactly what AnchorAlum is advocating.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

It is seen as her "fault" because she gave up her power by getting drunk.

By being drunk she has limited her control over herself - she can no longer make good decisions.

Now, does this give the man (assuming it is "always" a man) the right to rape her, no, it does not. But, what happens is that the guy becomes an opportunist. He sees an opportunity to rape her and takes advantage of it. It is still not right, but that is what happens.

The woman must exercise responsibility for herself. By being drunk and no longer in control of her actions she has put that burden of responsibility on someone else.

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.

I agree.

[33girl]

OMG, DF, you are SO right. I'm going to go out and cut off every penis I see.

No really...from one post to another, you changed from "teaching men" to "teaching children."

Obviously what I said made you realize you were wrong and I was right.

Thank you, drive through.

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Men run the real world. Which was kind of her poorly expressed overwrought point.


What. The. Fuck?

Wait now, so if she had a boyfriend she's only using him for sex? Didn't she SAY that she was warned not to go upstairs under fear of rape? You think this was a newsflash?


Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.


You know rape is about power, not sex, right? Even date rape, acquaintance rape, drunk at a party rape. It's about having the POWER to force someone to do something that they do not or would not consent to.


WTF is this even.


While they obviously don't care about her as a person, it is NOT ABOUT SEX.


Do all your weekly rants make this little sense?



If that's what you read you're an idiot. It's about teaching our children, from young through college how to act and what is unacceptable behavior rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

Your point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone. Oh how terrible, the divide between men and women when men are forced to acknowledge the existence of rape. 99% of which is perpetrated by their gender. Obviously their feelings are the most important here and it's just better not to actually address the real problem.

J.F.C.

If you think that my point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone, I AM NOT THE IDIOT HERE.

I read what this woman wrote, and I read also the op-ed in the WSJ last weekend. I have my take, and you have yours.

She's a freakin' pansy if she was so upset by those horrible fraternity houses at UVA full of preppy little assholes who wear oxford shirts and orange and blue rep ties to the Wahoo games on Saturdays and leave at halftime cause their team sucks and their buzz is off.

Seriously, would YOU let a kid scare you off of that campus? Riiiiiggghhht.

Girlfriend would NOT survive a visit to a Baltimore McDonalds....