How to stop hazing in my fraternity?

[dnall]

Originally Posted by exlurker

First of all, congrats on the awards / turnaround.
Second, maybe just a minor question, or maybe you can't answer because of ritual issues: was it hard to do a "bible study" focused on your org's principles without hitting the slippery slope of actual religious beliefs / theology, etc?

I'm an ATO, so Alpha and Omega with a cross in the middle. We aren't exclusively a Christian org, but we are based on Christian principles. We were started after the civil war to bring mankind together on the basis of commonly held judeo-christian principles, and cause everyone to believe in those things so we can unite them. So, not really a problem.

That said, we tapped Campus Crusade to run it. I know some campuses have Greek InterVarsity which might be better if it's there. You could probably use a business ethics professor if you needed to. Whatever works. I thought it was good to bring someone in from outside that had some expertise and maybe a different view about the subject areas than we as undergrads did. Opportunity to sharpen and refocus.

Anyway we have some principles stated in our ritual & 3 public principles focused on pledges. We just changed the ritual principles to synonyms, added the pledge principles, and kicked in a couple complementary words. Then told the Campus Crusade guy to do moral development sessions based on one of those words for each session. He did the non-denominational won't offend anyone version. He did make bible refs, but also talked about how something was viewed in Judaism, Islam, etc. It was a bit of a communications barrier to get across to this guys what we wanted, but once it was going it worked well.

We ended up recruiting a couple guys out of campus crusade that each later served as chaplain for the chapter - which is mostly about continuing moral leadership education for actives in our org. We also started doing habitat projects, which was run by campus crusade guys on our campus, so working side by side with those guys. Lot of cultural barrier, but good stuff to do.

Bible study, and anything specific we did, may not be the perfect answers for another org or campus. It's what worked for us. I'm mainly saying it can be done & done well while still being hard and maybe even making your chapter/members better in the process. You just have to be creative and put in some hard work.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by dnall

I'm an ATO, so Alpha and Omega with a cross in the middle. We aren't exclusively a Christian org, but we are based on Christian principles. We were started after the civil war to bring mankind together on the basis of commonly held judeo-christian principles, and cause everyone to believe in those things so we can unite them. So, not really a problem.

That said, we tapped Campus Crusade to run it. I know some campuses have Greek InterVarsity which would be a good alternative if it's there.

Anyway we have some principles stated in our ritual. We just changed the words to synonyms. Added some complementary stuff. Then told the Campus Crusade guy to do a moral development sessions based on one of those words for each session. He did the non-denominational won't offend anyone version. He did make bible refs, but also talked about how something was viewed in Judaism, Islam, etc. It was a bit of a communications barrier to get across to this guys what we wanted, but once it was going it worked well.

We ended up recruiting a couple guys out of campus crusade that each later served as chaplain for the chapter - which is mostly about continuing moral leadership education for actives in our org.

Bible study may not be the answer for every org, but it's something that worked for us.

Thanks for the info, and best wishes for the future, too.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by exlurker

Thanks for the info, and best wishes for the future, too.

haha you caught me mid-edit. No worries. Hope our experience can help someone else along the way. If not, well, it worked for us at the time & I'm proud of that accomplishment.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

I'm an ATO, so Alpha and Omega with a cross in the middle. We aren't exclusively a Christian org, but we are based on Christian principles.

dnall, it seems to me that ATO has held on to this particular aspect of its heritage/history more than most if not almost all other GLOs with a similar background, at least of the NIC/IFC variety. By that, I mean that while many groups acknowledge that they are founded on and espouse Judeo-Christian values, ATO seems to take it further with more stress on its spiritual dimensions. (I know there was discussion here at one point about ATO publishing a devotional book and having a prayer "room" on its national website -- don't know if either of these are still around.)

Do you think that this religious dimension has, in fact, remained more a part of ATO's national identity than is the case in other GLOs? And if you do, can you say why? (Understood if you can't.) I just find it very interesting and informative.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

dnall, it seems to me that ATO has held on to this particular aspect of its heritage/history more than most if not almost all other GLOs with a similar background, at least of the NIC/IFC variety. By that, I mean that while many groups acknowledge that they are founded on and espouse Judeo-Christian values, ATO seems to take it further with more stress on its spiritual dimensions. (I know there was discussion here at one point about ATO publishing a devotional book and having a prayer "room" on its national website -- don't know if either of these are still around.)

Do you think that this religious dimension has, in fact, remained more a part of ATO's national identity than is the case in other GLOs? And if you do, can you say why? (Understood if you can't.) I just find it very interesting and informative.

Yeah we have all that & a little more.

We used to have a spiritual consultant that toured around. He wasn't there for the dog & pony show. He wasn't supposed to report bad stuff unless it happened in front of him. He was there to see what was really going on in your chapter and help you get back to the fundamentals. He did a session with movie clips to reinforce the ritual/creed & used that as a basis to get the chaplain running continuing education for actives. That was badass, but it got discontinued due to cost.

We still do a spiritual leadership retreat hiking through the Rockies for a week. Never been, but hear it's real cool.

But anyway, to your question... I can give you a really simple answer you won't understand, or I can take a minute to explain it in more detail so you get it.

I would say XYZ can be based on whatever judeo-christian values, fine. But why does it exist?

If that answer is a social club, mutually supporting each other, standing up for the rights of people like us (ie make my own life better), &/or self-improvement then I don't understand why they still exist.

I can see the short term by the founders. I can see a chapter operating as a social club. I can see some alumni caring about their past experience and the friends they had it with. I cannot see a national org & involved alumni without purpose. All that would leave behind is taking money off chapters to pay the staff and spray around a few scholarships. That would be tragic.

ATO chapters exist ONLY to recruit men of quality and train them to accomplish our mission as alumni. They do a lot of other stuff like any fraternity, but that's just bonus. If only the bonus existed, we'd dissolve the org.

The simple answer is that is who ATO is. That's our lives & we've sworn our soul before God to execute it forever and be judged by him on our performance of this calling.

Without the mission, it's just some dumb letters on the front of a house full of drunk assholes trying hook up & pissing off the neighbors. That's not a fraternity and cannot be allowed to exist, at least not with my letters on it.

I mean I can talk to you a lot about the mission and purpose. I can explain the principles just using synonyms for the actual words. I can tell you the 50 something bible versus in our ritual. I can tell you almost everything about my fraternity with the exception of the actual secret stuff. We're not supposed to hide that stuff. We're supposed to be finding rushees that believe & buy into that concept, and we're supposed to be spreading that message to the world, so not at all secret. The handshake and password and stuff are the only real secrets.

I couldn't comment on other orgs. I've seen some where I don't see the purpose and I have an very hard time understanding them. But I've also seen others where I can very clearly understand they have very important mission & members are deeply committed to it.

All I can say is I hope all orgs have a purpose and commitment on par with my org. If they don't I feel sorry for them and it effects my respect for their org. If they've lost their way, I think it's vitally important the reexamine who they are and get back to those roots. If they never had a serious purpose, which I hope has never in history been the case, then I would hope they'd either remake their org or dissolve cause that's a waste of space making us all look bad.

Anyway, I'm sure that's long. Clearly passionate about my org, and always difficult to explain your passions to get across your feelings and why you have them (maybe girls are better at this? ). But, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

We used to have a spiritual consultant that toured around. . . . That was badass, but it got discontinued due to cost.

The juxtaposition of these two statements made me laugh. Sorry.

Anyway, I'm sure that's long. Clearly passionate about my org, and always difficult to explain your passions to get across your feelings and why you have them (maybe girls are better at this? ). But, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate your taking the the time to answer. It does help me understand better (and confirm) what I thought I was observing. And what you said about the mission of the org, as well as what you said about getting back to roots, resonates with me and my own experience very much.

I know that this was something of a highjack of the thread (though one I found informative), so back to our regularly scheduled thread. Perhaps what the OP can take from this (if he's still reading) is that part of a successful strategy is likely to involve delving into what the fraternity experience really means for his fraternity.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by dnall

All I can say is I hope all orgs have a purpose and commitment on par with my org. If they don't I feel sorry for them and it effects my respect for their org. If they've lost their way, I think it's vitally important the reexamine who they are and get back to those roots. If they never had a serious purpose, which I hope has never in history been the case, then I would hope they'd either remake their org or dissolve cause that's a waste of space making us all look bad.

I don't think you can say that overall, as there are many religious or ethnic groups out there who part of their purpose, if not their primary purpose, for being founded was that they were denied membership in other groups. You can't really blame them for "losing their purpose" when society has moved forward and (hopefully/theoretically) made their purpose moot.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The juxtaposition of these two statements made me laugh. Sorry.

It's a completely normal fraternity with ragin parties, serious risk mgmt concerns, etc. It's not church deacons. We're all comfortable with the juxtaposition of the two by now.

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think you can say that overall, as there are many religious or ethnic groups out there who part of their purpose, if not their primary purpose, for being founded was that they were denied membership in other groups. You can't really blame them for "losing their purpose" when society has moved forward and (hopefully/theoretically) made their purpose moot.

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by dnall

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

Can we unban Rudey for a day or two?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

It's a completely normal fraternity with ragin parties, serious risk mgmt concerns, etc. It's not church deacons. We're all comfortable with the juxtaposition of the two by now.

Oh, I know. It was just humerous.

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

So only "serious change the world" missions are valid or worthwhile missions? Anything else is short-sighted? My org certainly has what I would call a "serious change the world" mission, but I can't imagine ever suggesting that other orgs with different kinds of missions (like, say, change/grow the person) aren't equally worthwhile or valuable.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by dnall

I would say their founding was short sighted.

Those who live in glass houses...

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Those who live in glass houses...

Exactly. According to its website, ATO had a "whites only" clause until the 60s.

Guess the ATO founders were short-sighted, as well.

[Regina.George]

Originally Posted by dnall

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

WTF.