Protests In Wisconsin

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm not sure what they want--do they not want to pay more for their retirement and health benefits, or do they want to keep collective bargaining?

To the first, I say welcome to the real world. I pay considerably more than these people do towards my 401(k) and health care, and I have what are considered "excellent benefits" for the private sector. Also, the fact that you're still guaranteed a pension is nothing short of amazing. Its the complaints I've been hearing about this which is probably why they're not getting a whole ton of sympathy about this from the rest of the state and country.

To the second, I can see keeping collective bargaining. I'm union-neutral at best (probably just anti-union), but I understand how it can help public employees to some extent.

This is how I feel.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Here's the article about the firefighters' union:
Wisconsin Firefighters: We'll Give Up Pay to Save Collective Bargaining


Personally I don't think unions are inherently bad. I think without them, or without the threat of them, corporations would take advantage of a glut in the labor market by paying unreasonably low wages that people will feel compelled to take. I don't see things returning to the 1910 status quo, but it wouldn't have been a positive thing either. That said, unions aren't always good either, and if they DO price themselves out of a job others should be hired - at reasonable rates - to do the work. I don't 'get' when unions protest the construction of buildings that use non-union labor, if their work is superior it should pay for itself, but for all I know those buildings hired contractors who hired and exploited workers to do shoddy work.

Basically, I don't think the fiscal cuts are unreasonable, but I think the 'union-busting' measures are a purely political move and a pretty bad one.

This is also how I feel.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

AFAIK most, if not all, unionized emergency responders aren't allowed to strike.

This, why I was going to post.


So, I have lots of union experience. My husband was a union carpenter for 10 years before being accepted into the fire academy. He already in the Columbus fire union even though he's only a recruit. They excused the guys from class early today, so they could go protest in downtown C-bus. Not only am I a union "wife," but my job requires me to work with a LOT of union laborers and steelworkers. With that being said, and my agreement with the above posts, and what is going on in Ohio right now.... I think each union needs to be evaluated individually. If collective bargaining goes by the wayside for public employees, it will eventually affect the private sector (hubby's former job), and that will spell the end of all unions. I don't think union busting is the answer. It works in some situations. HOWEVER, IT IS GROSSLY ABUSED BY MANY! Union reform could save SOOOOO much money in the public sector. Getting rid of collective bargaining isn't a good enough fix. I can't even talk about my personal experiences at work, because I signed something saying I wouldn't.

However, I can say my husband would take a significant pay cut as a firefighter if the Ohio bill is signed. Yes, I'm biased, but I felt this way before; public safety employees should never have to take pay cuts. (What Cincinnati Police and Fire had to go through to keep their jobs this year made me ill, this city is so fucked up I'm glad we're moving). In Ohio, public safety employees cannot strike. They gave up that right as a part of collective bargaining 20+ years ago. But their system is very flawed as well. The Columbus assistant fire chief just retired with something like $200K+ in unused sick and vacation time. He then took the job of head fire chief in Cinci for a salary of $119K a year. SO much money could be saved if this ALONE were reformed. In the private sector, we have a "use it or lose it" policy. Why can't public union employees do that to save state and local budgets?

As for teachers, I'm fine with the average salary. I'm sure there are many who are overpaid, and I know there are many who are underpaid. Really, that's all I'll say, because I'm not looking to get into a fight with the teachers here. But my very qualified brother, who has his teaching degree, would happily take your job right now, even for only $34K a year. I think poor performing employees are protected by the unions, and really, their ass should be out the door.

My last thoughts... there is a factory in my hometown that has union employees striking right this second. The factory is permanently hiring "scabs." Friends of ours are leaving jobs at the mall and going to work for $15 an hour at this factory, and the factory management is training them all. http://www.sanduskyregister.com/news...kers21711aoxml Considering what the union workers are so upset over, and what they're striking over.... I think they deserve to be out on their ass if that's what it comes to. EVERYONE is making sacrifices right now to keep their jobs. Sacrificing a little bit in order to keep your employment is a must!!!!!!! No time and a half if you don't work 40 hours straight first? Tough shit! Be thankful you have a JOB! Because obviously, there are unemployed out there who would give anything to have those jobs, they don't care if they have to cross picket lines if that means a paycheck. I personally took a 20% pay cut at my last job in an effort to keep employed. It only worked for 3 months, and then I was laid off for 15 months. In this economy, everyone has to make sacrifices, union members included.

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

In this economy, everyone has to make sacrifices, union members included.

I totally agree.

What's perplexing is that union members have agreed to take the "pay" cut (really, a cut in benefits) and Walker is still not willing to negotiate.

Also interesting is the clause within the Senate Bill 11 that states that the Governor may fire any public employees involved in “concerted activities to interrupt the operations or services of state government” if the state were in a State of Emergency. (A state of emergency is, of course, declaired by the Governor). Consequently, if the bill passes, Walker has the power--without any system of checks or balances--to fire any public employee. This is something that (a) has nothing to do with balancing a budget and (b) is far too much power for any one man, especially when it extends to any public employee in the State, not simply the ones he hired.


Finally, Mr. Walker has attempted a similar move in the past, when he fired Milwaukee County courthouse security in the name of budget conservation. He hired a private security firm, Wackenhut, which turned out to be less than ideal (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/90958499.html). Milwaukee County also ruled that "the county did not have a true budget crisis at the time and county officials failed to give the union representing the security guards an opportunity to make some alternative cost-saving proposals before laying them off" (http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/113212479.html), forcing the city to rehire the employees and pay all of their missed salary. This move cost the City of Milwaukee an additional $430,000, which is not something you want when fiscal conservation is the goal.

I want the state budget balanced as badly as anyone else. I want my kids to grow up in a fiscally secure environment and I want to have true job security when I return home. I just really don't think the budget or the safety of my state is what is going on here.

[ZZ-kai-]

IMO, endorsements are only as good as the schmuck on top of said unions saying that. The true endorsement is when the people vote - unions can't vote and therefore their 'endoresement' means jack.

I think you'd be surprised of who doesn't show up to work or would protest (meaning: police, fire, troopers) if this were on them too. Scabs, in all industries/professions, are not treated kindly. Yet another reason to get rid of unions, all they do is get themselves to turn on each other.

I'm having a hard time finding the donor list for the unions (Police, ST, FF)

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

IMO, endorsements are only as good as the schmuck on top of said unions saying that. The true endorsement is when the people vote - unions can't vote and therefore their 'endoresement' means jack.

Right hence the difference between endorsement and local support.

I think you'd be surprised of who doesn't show up to work or would protest (meaning: police, fire, troopers) if this were on them too. Scabs, in all industries/professions, are not treated kindly. Yet another reason to get rid of unions, all they do is get themselves to turn on each other.

I can only speak for firefighters due to friends of mine, but while they would probably strike if necessary I don't think it would be a 'full' strike. It might run similarly to the way short-staffed depts near me run, certain stations closed on certain days, but coverage available in case of emergency.

But I don't think that adds up to "All unions bad."

I'm having a hard time finding the donor list for the unions (Police, ST, FF)

[ZZ-kai-]

PS, if/when this bill passes, the union will not be busted. It will still exist. What I find incredibly interesting is the fact that this can happen:

The proposed bill weakens union organizations by no longer allowing dues to be deducted from employee paychecks and by allowing employees to opt out of dues payments all together.

So, we'll see if the Union MEMBERS themselves put the union out of business?!?!?

http://www.bargainingforbenefits.com...t-repair-bill/

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

PS, if/when this bill passes, the union will not be busted. It will still exist. What I find incredibly interesting is the fact that this can happen:



So, we'll see if the Union MEMBERS themselves put the union out of business?!?!?

http://www.bargainingforbenefits.com...t-repair-bill/

Reducing/removing collective bargaining rights (for everything but wages I believe) is all but busting a union.

[KSig RC]

It's nearly impossible to reconcile traditionally Conservative beliefs like individual responsibility, enhanced rights for the people rather than government, and market-based solutions to economic issues with reducing the ability of state employees to bargain collectively.

[ZZ-kai-]

Color it how you want, the Union isn't being busted. Is it being close to mortally wounded, yes, and I fully support that. All 175,000 state employees can terminate their contract, re-apply/re-hire and negotiate all of their own salaries, PTO, raises/bonuses...etc. for all I care. Actually, I'd prefer that.

Remember one of those guys who punked out for IL, State Rep Gordon Hintz, you know, this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0BG973hQtc

Well, he's a sleeze-ball. Only a matter of time before he's shown the door.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/artic...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

State Rep. Gordon Hintz was issued a municipal citation in Appleton earlier this month for violation of a city sexual misconduct ordinance.

Appleton police issued the citation Feb. 10 in conjunction with an ongoing investigation of Heavenly Touch Massage Parlor, , 342 W. Wisconsin Ave., in Appleton.


Police searched the business and a nearby residence Jan. 31, after ivestigators had staked out the properties for several days after receiving a tip.


The raid netted six arrests, and police seized a vehicle and assets associated with the enterprise.


No additional details about the incident were available Monday morning.


The ordinance under which Hintz, 37, was charged prohibits paying or receiving “a fee, directly or indirectly, or to offer or ask for anything of value, for touching or offering to touch the sexual parts of another.”


Hintz was not immediately available for comment.


According to online court records, Hintz posted a $2,667.50 bond.


He is scheduled to appear before an Outagamie County court commissioner on April 27.


The Northwestern will update this story as more information becomes available.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Color it how you want, the Union isn't being busted. Is it being close to mortally wounded, yes, and I fully support that. All 175,000 state employees can terminate their contract, re-apply/re-hire and negotiate all of their own salaries, PTO, raises/bonuses...etc. for all I care. Actually, I'd prefer that.

It would appear you're the one doing the coloring - the difference between "busted" and "mortally wounded" is laughably inconsequential, and the fact that it isn't applied to all government employees equally is also pretty piss poor.

Want to run the government more like a business? Fine. That means winning battles with unions in the boardroom, and not on the floor of the legislature. Small government indeed.

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Color it how you want, the Union isn't being busted. Is it being close to mortally wounded, yes, and I fully support that. All 175,000 state employees can terminate their contract, re-apply/re-hire and negotiate all of their own salaries, PTO, raises/bonuses...etc. for all I care. Actually, I'd prefer that.

Remember one of those guys who punked out for IL, State Rep Gordon Hintz, you know, this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0BG973hQtc

Well, he's a sleeze-ball. Only a matter of time before he's shown the door.

You know he's in the Assembly, right? And that it's the Senators who are in IL? And I'm assuming you understand the difference?

So, what are you talking about when you say he "punked out for IL"?

[Drolefille]

That's all nice, seems like an asshole. It is, however, irrelevant to the conversation.

ETA: He doesn't even sound like an asshole, he sounds like a guy who goes to a massage parlor that gives happy endings.

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

That's all nice, seems like an asshole. It is, however, irrelevant to the conversation.

ETA: He doesn't even sound like an asshole, he sounds like a guy who goes to a massage parlor that gives happy endings.

Drole, I don't know you, but you made me laugh out loud on this one.

Thanks for that after a crappy Monday!!

[AOEforme]

This is a little long, but it's an excellent analysis from a Wisconsin Teacher (a former high school English teacher of mine) who has continued to work, in his classroom, during the protests.

A Modest Rebuttal: http://blazing-night-527.heroku.com/

[Psi U MC Vito]

I found out something interesting the other day. I know the Dems are getting heat for leaving, but apparently there is no mechanism to filibuster, which is what a minority at the federal level would do to try to stop a vote they know they will loose.

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I found out something interesting the other day. I know the Dems are getting heat for leaving, but apparently there is no mechanism to filibuster, which is what a minority at the federal level would do to try to stop a vote they know they will loose.

Yep!

CNN (of all places) actually had a lovely little story about the history of legislative walkouts to avoid quorum. When Abraham Lincoln was in the state legislature, he apparently jumped out of a building in an attempt to prevent Democrats from reaching quorum. Learn something new everyday!