Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Newest logical fallacy - begging the question.

In fact, here, the writer was begging the question just as much as the pro-choice writers he referenced.

"

Not considering a fetus to be human life" does indeed mean abortion wouldn't be murder. But the question of whether or not it is a human life is in no way decided - that is in fact the point on which the two sides disagree. If it isn't a human life, which is apparently your argument,what is it? A non-human life? - Especially once he/she can exist outside of the mother's womb - at that point the parasitic argument is rendered moot.

In the same breath you're arguing that people disagree on the premise and then trying to turn and state that one perception of the premise is right. Pro-choice individuals probably have a variety of perspectives on what precisely a human fetus is, whether it is life or not, yet still believe that a woman has the right to choose whether her body will support that fetus. Even at a vague level of viability - something that isn't a clear cut time frame - that fetus is still using her body to live.

If abortion is indeed a right, is it an unlimited one? Most rights can be exercised on a sliding scale of sorts - your right to exercise it is limited by its intrusion on others' rights. As even Roe v. Wade made clear - a fetus has more of a right to have his/her right to life considered the further along in development it is. Thus the differences spelled out in the limits of a woman's right to an abortion according to the trimester of development - which to return to my earlier point about ultrasounds would be much easier to deduce with an ultrasound than in trying to figure out when the baby was conceived, especially in an unplanned preganancy. Also, if we start framing the discussion in terms of competing rights, a strong argument can be made that if a woman is indeed in the tiny minority of women whose lives are threatened by a pregnancy her right to live supercedes that of the unborn baby.

Indeed these are all points of debate. Although I argue that because there is no clear line that one can draw whether by time, health, or others standards that would protect a woman's mental and physical health as well as her right to her own body, that the optimum solution is minimal restrictions along with education for kids and teens, access to general healthcare for all women, and high levels of support for pregnant women who WANT to have children (also no longer accepting slut-shaming in schools, work, or you know, life.) No one's like "YAY MORE ABORTIONS" except for a few hipsters who like to let people know how edgy they are.

I wish the debate weren't being lead by either side's more extreme members. I also think that ultimately the war will be won non-legislatively. But that's another thread.

Non-legislative would be my ideal as well. Also non-public referendum. But I'm a dreamer.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Right, but what's a few centimeters really? I don't see any difference between what the doctor did and partial-birth abortion, which wasn't even made criminal until 2003.

Considering "partial-birth abortion" isn't an actual procedure, which was the major complaint about the bill banning it, and every court in the US would consider THIS murder, I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point. It doesn't suit you.

Actually, a better analogy is being beheaded (scissors) versus being drawn and quartered (current procedure). Both are gruesome. Are you unfamiliar with how abortions are accomplished?

Analogy fail. Contrasting the accepted procedure to one considered inappropriate and gruesome was the point he was making. Accepted procedure isn't inherently good, but you have to actually break it down on medical grounds not because it sounds icky. Snipping the spine of a newborn is murder, plain and simple.

I'm with aggieAXO. Woman and fetus should be anesthetized as standard procedure before any abortive procedure.

Do you think there may be a reason why this isn't done? Medical reason that is.