Etiquette?

[IrishLake]

I think the basic table etiquette is a must no matter where you live. Which cutlery to use, what goes where and on which plate, how to properly eat your soup/bread/meat. Keep it simple and everyone will benefit.

I remember going to a New Years party at the most beautiful place ever. My (future) brother-in-law's close friend came from big money, and this guys parents where having a new years party in New Albany (the wealthy suburb of Columbus, the neighboring house belongs to the Rahals, the racing famliy). I can't call it a house, because it wasn't, it was a mansion (complete with bowling alley, indoor swimming pool and "Pub" in the basement level, then 3 stories above that, and one wing of the house was an old church from somewhere in Eastern Europe that they had dismantled and shipped here then reassembled and made a part of the house - the fireplace was so huge you could stand inside of it). Anyway, even with what I knew about manners and etiquette, I was still very intimidated because this was the fanciest dinner I had ever been to in my short 21 years. In order to compensate, I observed what the other people were doing, and followed suit. (But even I knew that when my other future BiLs date asked for a glass of white zin, she would be looked at funny).

For your enjoyment, read the archived stories. www.etiquettehell.com

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

I think the basic table etiquette is a must no matter where you live. Which cutlery to use, what goes where and on which plate, how to properly eat your soup/bread/meat. Keep it simple and everyone will benefit.

I agree.

Originally Posted by IrishLake

For your enjoyment, read the archived stories. www.etiquettehell.com

Please don't give me another procrastination tool.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Bless his heart and in some settings he would've been considered the most awesomest of the awesome.*** However, I can't help but be a bit embarassed for him because he was doing what he had been socialized to do. Yet, he hadn't captured that what he had been socialized to do was perceived as strange in that environment.

While I believe in the importance of teaching "social graces," I think that learning to be observant and read your surroundings is ten times more useful in life.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL @ supposed to.

It can be perceived as rude. The bolded is the operative phrase because context matters.

I'm from the south. A man not standing up for women and not always opening the doors for women has never made the building burn down at the many business meetings and (noncollegiate) galas that I have attended over the years. Opinions on etiquette matter because socialization patterns do not go unchallenged; and if you do an etiquette class where gender etiquette is brought up, don't be surprised if there are people who scoff.

In adult settings, I've found (as have the other adults in my life) that it does matter when people don't know basic etiquette, which yes, includes opening doors, etc. down here. Especially at dinners and social events. No one said the "house will burn down", but why not just do what's polite in the situation? My point is that it is important to know the etiquette for the setting. People who do business with international clients, for instance, learn the basics for the region they are visiting.

IMO it's important to give people the correct tools. They don't have to use them, but at least they're armed with the knowledge.

[IrishLake]

Dr Phil, that website has so many stories on it that will make you die with laughter, and cringe with embarassment. It's a must read!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

In adult settings, I've found (as have the other adults in my life) that it does matter when people don't know basic etiquette, which yes, includes opening doors, etc. down here. Especially at dinners and social events.

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."

Table etiquette is arguably as basic as it comes and, like IrishLake said, that's a good idea regardless of where you're from. You will learn more etiquette things along the way as you travel to different places and spend time around different people.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

My point is that it is important to know the etiquette for the setting.

Then we agree.

Therefore, like I said, people need to know the difference between teaching "table etiquette" versus teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" and "teaching gender." Don't confuse the three and teach people to read context.

(Afterall, if they have gotten all the way to college and haven't learned yet that men are "supposed to" open the door for them in some settings, it isn't a sorority's job to teach them that.)

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."

I guess I just don't go to the right parties. I'm from Atlanta and live in Savannah, and no man has ever stood up when I leave the table unless it's a coincidence

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."



Then we agree.

Therefore, like I said, people need to know the difference between teaching "basic etiquette" versus teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" and "teaching gender." Don't confuse the three and teach people to read context.

Which again, comes back to arming them with the knowledge. They don't have to use it, but it's good to know. You might not consider those things basic, but many, many people do. No one's going to have a stroke because Mr. X forgets to hold the door open for his date, but some people will take note, and that's just reality. It's just like the example I used of people who do business internationally. They arm themselves with the correct etiquette for the region and business setting, and this is no different. Which is why it's important to be taught these things, then pick up on when they are necessary and when they are not. And that is as simple as observing your surroundings.

ETA: IrishLake's story about the formal date from Georgia is a good example of knowing your surroundings. When everyone at the table looks very confused as to why you're standing up for the ladies, it's time to just stay seated. Were he at dinner with a bunch of older ladies from back home and didn't stand, they would likely think he was rude or, "Bless his heart, he just doesn't know any better". (Though I will say, he deserves credit for trying to be polite, even if he missed the clues.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Which again, comes back to arming them with the knowledge. They don't have to use it, but it's good to know.

Right---Just don't confuse teaching "table etiquette" with teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" (for southern chapters) and "teaching gender." And don't attempt to impose a certain view of overall etiquette on everyone as though there is a consensus across contexts.

That was always my point.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

And that is as simple as observing your surroundings.

Correct.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Just don't confuse teaching "table etiquette" with teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" (for southern chapters) and "teaching gender." And don't attempt to impose a certain view of overall etiquette on everyone as though there is a consensus across contexts.

That was always my point.



Correct.

Perfect, as I didn't do any of those things. As I said, it's important to teach them these little customs. It's up to them to know when to use them. Sometimes it will be VERY important, and other times it will look silly. The etiquette teacher needs to prepare them for different situations...he/she can't follow them to every social event.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Perfect, as I didn't do any of those things.

Uh...yeah...I was and still am talking about etiquette teachers and etiquette classes. I don't know what you not doing any of those things has to do with this discussion.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

The etiquette teacher needs to prepare them for different situations...he/she can't follow them to every social event.

Correct.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Uh...yeah...I was and still am talking about etiquette teachers and etiquette classes. I don't know what you not doing any of those things has to do with this discussion.




Correct.

Your "don'ts" including the implied "you".

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Your "don'ts" including the implied "you".

No, you inferred the "you" even though she's been saying the same thing since the beginning of the thread.

Also you do seem to have confusion around it since you identified the young man who stood's actions as "the right thing" that no one else was appreciating.


Seriously, two threads that need pineapple.jpg in the same day...

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Your "don'ts" including the implied "you".

That is a general you to be applied to etiquette teachers and etiquette classes, just as it was in my very first post.

ETA: But, I can see why "you" thought I was typing to "you" about "you." I don't assume that "you" confuse the three because your posts were only specifically about "southern etiquette" and what men "should" do.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

No, you inferred the "you" even though she's been saying the same thing since the beginning of the thread.

Also you do seem to have confusion around it since you identified the young man who stood's actions as "the right thing" that no one else was appreciating.


Seriously, two threads that need pineapple.jpg in the same day...

No, I inferred "you" as her post was in direct response to mine, and focused on the fact that I keep saying I think it's important to teach these customs so that the student can use them if need be. I have no confusion whatsoever, but what I do have is respect for those that TRY to be polite, even if are using the wrong customs in the wrong situation. I have respect for the thought behind the actions.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That is a general you to be applied to etiquette teachers and etiquette classes, just as it was in my very first post.

ETA: But, I can see why "you" thought I was typing to "you" about "you." I don't assume that "you" confuse the three because your posts were only specifically about "southern etiquette" and what men "should" do.

Yes, my posts were directly in response to yours that I quoted, and as those particular posts kept referencing how ridiculous you think some of these things are, I responded accordingly.